Anyone Else Underwhelmed?

[dbdbdb]

You don't worry about damage down front of stage? I knew a guy that bought the Fractal floor thingy and the first night he used it a drunk chick spilled beer on it. I bought the rack specifically for live use, partially for that reason and partly so I could use a good rackmount power conditioner and also not have a long audio cable from my wireless receiver.

 

No worries about drinks, been lucky I guess .... Plus I would be inclined to kick anyone (especially someone who sauced up) who approaches with a drink :D

[glideman]

How funny... i’m Listening to Alice In Chains-Check My Brain whiles’t seeing this post... roflmao!!,

[twohandband]

No worries about drinks, been lucky I guess .... Plus I would be inclined to kick anyone (especially someone who sauced up) who approaches with a 

 

Assuming you're right there! I'm one of those guys who has to panic-run back to my pedalboard when I realize I have a patch change coming! But seriously, I'm allergic to having the brains of my gear on the floor. Plus there's the issue of where do you put your wireless receiver.

[phil_m]

Assuming you're right there! I'm one of those guys who has to panic-run back to my pedalboard when I realize I have a patch change coming! But seriously, I'm allergic to having the brains of my gear on the floor. Plus there's the issue of where do you put your wireless receiver.

 

I put mine on my pedalboard...

 

[twohandband]

I put mine on my pedalboard...

 

 

Hehe that looks terrifying to me. Even is something didn't get spilled on it I'd be basically guaranteed to kick or step on the pots to those expensive-looking stompers you got there...

[phil_m]

Hehe that looks terrifying to me. Even is something didn't get spilled on it I'd be basically guaranteed to kick or step on the pots to those expensive-looking stompers you got there...

 

Never been an issue for me, I guess... I've been using pedalboards since 2000 or so, and have only ever had one issue, and that was sort of a fluke. I once had a pedalboard up on stage at an open mic, and one of the other acts was a 300lb dude who decided to dance and he completely stomped on my DL4, ripping out 2 of the 1/4" jacks. Oddly enough, no alcohol was involved...

[twohandband]

Never been an issue for me, I guess... I've been using pedalboards since 2000 or so, and have only ever had one issue, and that was sort of a fluke. I once had a pedalboard up on stage at an open mic, and one of the other acts was a 300lb dude who decided to dance and he completely stomped on my DL4, ripping out 2 of the 1/4" jacks. Oddly enough, no alcohol was involved...

I would have probably been the guy who stepped on your stuff! I'm a really active performer, so the less stuff I can get away with onstage the better. What I really hate is gigs where I have to sing; a mic stand between me and the audience is just in a terrible, terrible spot.

[yingwuzhao]

I put mine on my pedalboard...

 

Is that the new ELX200 12p speaker laying on the right of Line6 L2T? How do you like/compare the EV with the line6?

 

Thank you :)

[phil_m]

Is that the new ELX200 12p speaker laying on the right of Line6 L2T? How do you like/compare the EV with the line6?

Thank you :)

That speaker belonged to the people running sound... Was just a stage monitor at the time. The L2t belongs to me.

[carlmoreton]

I’ve been thinking about this recently and what I am going to say is constructive.  I’ve always enjoyed gear, used to use a POD XT Pro years ago for a function band, but since then I’ve been pretty much a nice pedalboard into a Landau Deville.

 

I bought a Helix just before lockdown as I wanted to video myself with a band playing live in a friend’s studio and my amp would be too loud, and I hadn’t even really heard of Capture X etc.

 

So, here I am now in 2023 looking at playing with a couple of bands and rehearsing.  I’ve been putting some effort into the Helix.  I have a studio and am very able to engineer, produce and mix my own music (I tend to use Scuffam S-Gear, and I’ve also started using my amps with a Capture x) so I understand how to try and get the Helix sounding good.  High / low pass etc.

 

BUT, in a live / rehearsal experience I am starting to lose faith with the Helix.  Yep it’s a great unit, but I’m not feeling the same ‘something’ that my amp gives me.  It’s almost like the Helix is in the ‘mix’ but it’s not ‘in the room’.  I almost feel like there just ‘something’ between the sound and my ears. 

 

Plus, I read a comment in this post where some guy said he’s getting great sounds and loving the Helix (and good on him for that, anyone who’s happy is a great thing) and he said “I’m only 1/64^th into discovering what it can do…”

 

Playing the guitar shouldn’t be about spending months learning how to use your gear, it’s about playing and being creative.  Like most modern things now, seems people, myself included, get caught up spending 90% of your time fiddling with gear / settings / online b*lllollipop, and 10% actually playing.  Surely it should be 90% playing and 10% tweaking of our sound. 

 

I’m probably sounding a bit miserable here as gigs are disappearing, venues are shutting, no one pays for music anymore, music has almost become just a hobby for many now, but I’m just starting to feel like I am not prepared to spend ANY more time fannying around getting sounds sorted, when the feel I am getting from the device is not inspiring me to really want to play.  I am talking about in a room / stage with others, not in my house at lower volume.

 

Maybe I need to sell the Helix. 

[silverhead]

On 5/12/2023 at 3:07 PM, carlmoreton said:

....

BUT, in a live / rehearsal experience I am starting to lose faith with the Helix.  Yep it’s a great unit, but I’m not feeling the same ‘something’ that my amp gives me.  It’s almost like the Helix is in the ‘mix’ but it’s not ‘in the room’.  I almost feel like there just ‘something’ between the sound and my ears. 

.....

That's absolutely true. What you hear with Helix and any amp modeler is not, and never will be, the sound of the amp in the room - because it's not in the room and your ears are very good at noticing the difference. The 'something' between the sound and your ears is a microphone or two. What you hear from an amp modeler like Helix is what the audio engineer hears through the soundboard when he/she places a mic in front of the amp. You hear the amp in the room; the engineer hears the sound of the mic'd amp in the contrrol booth.

 

Yes, if you want the sound of the amp in a room continue to use your amp in the room with you. Sell the Helix but don't imagine that any other amp modeler will be different in that respect. For gigs, let the sound people mic your amp and deal with the sound your audience hears.

[DunedinDragon]

On 5/12/2023 at 3:07 PM, carlmoreton said:

Playing the guitar shouldn’t be about spending months learning how to use your gear, it’s about playing and being creative.  Like most modern things now, seems people, myself included, get caught up spending 90% of your time fiddling with gear / settings / online b*lllollipop, and 10% actually playing.  Surely it should be 90% playing and 10% tweaking of our sound. 

 

I’m probably sounding a bit miserable here as gigs are disappearing, venues are shutting, no one pays for music anymore, music has almost become just a hobby for many now, but I’m just starting to feel like I am not prepared to spend ANY more time fannying around getting sounds sorted, when the feel I am getting from the device is not inspiring me to really want to play.  I am talking about in a room / stage with others, not in my house at lower volume.

 

Maybe I need to sell the Helix. 

 

I guess it comes down to individual perspective.  I've been playing my Helix for almost 8 years now and I'll admit to having had Helix burnout at one point.  But for me it was never really burnout from the Helix, but burnout from live performance.  What changed things for me was making the leap from doing live performances the way I'd been doing it since the early  70's and moving to a completely direct to PA, no stage amps setup.  Add to that the incredible abilities Line 6 has added to the Helix in recent firmware releases and I couldn't be more invigorated about playing and it's never been so easy to play and put together amazing performances.  No more tweaking with IRs or EQ tricks.  Just select the  either the Grammatico GSG for heavier sounds or the Elmsley for cleaner edge of breakup sounds along with the incredible new cabinets and it almost dials itself in.  And my band's performances now sound like studio sessions and our audiences couldn't be happier.

 

I really noticed this last week when I joined some friends of mine at a local bar and watched a traditional band with amps on stage.  I spent the whole night wondering how people can tolerate doing such things anymore.  After one set I was never happier to finally have a break.  And it's nothing against the band as they were fine compared with other traditional bands I've seen, but their sound is not exciting or interesting because it's a big bag of mush compared to what I'm used to now.

 

In essence what changed my perspective was embracing what modeling really brings to the table in this day and age rather than trying to force fit everything into an outdated paradigm.

[theElevators]

On 5/12/2023 at 3:07 PM, carlmoreton said:

 

BUT, in a live / rehearsal experience I am starting to lose faith with the Helix.  Yep it’s a great unit, but I’m not feeling the same ‘something’ that my amp gives me.  It’s almost like the Helix is in the ‘mix’ but it’s not ‘in the room’.  I almost feel like there just ‘something’ between the sound and my ears. 

 

That's because you are missing the "amp in the room" feeling.  That feeling you can only get when you have an amp in the room. Helix, or any other guitar processor creates the CD-quality amp + cab + mic + mic pre + eq + compression sound -- that's the whole point of it. 

 

What works for me as well as countless others is to simply use a guitar cabinet onstage with your processor for that familiar feeling.  To play guitar properly, you need some kind of stage volume, period.  In my opinion, FRFRs or wedge monitors do not give you the same air movement as a simple 12" speaker cab would.  That's why I got myself a Mooer Baby Bomb power amp that I connect to a single 12" speaker cab (either a standalone or from a combo amp).  It feels like I'm playing a tube amp, I get feedback, I can step away from it if it's too loud, I can come closer to it if I have a tricky part coming up, it helps me really chug the chords properly.  Without a speaker onstage, no matter what I do, I cannot get the palm muting right.  It needs to be felt somehow, it needs to chug. 

 

I don't bother with having a separate EQ for my on-stage volume, I dialed it in in such a way that it's neutral.  Feels absolutely the same as if I had my tube amp on stage.  Sounds great, inspiring, and everybody says what an amazing sound I have live, so many different colors, textures and stereo effects. 

 

All the valve amp purists are a joke at this stage.  Helix, Axe FX, Kemper are all capable of great live tones.  Countless blind tests were conducted where people could not even figure out whether they were playing a real amp or a digital emulation. 

 

Dial in your basic tone and then leave it alone, no need to have a different amp for each song.  I haven't touched my core sound in 2.5 years -- I do however keep tweaking delays, reverbs and other things of that nature that vary from song to song. 

[cruisinon2]

On 5/12/2023 at 3:07 PM, carlmoreton said:

I’ve been thinking about this recently and what I am going to say is constructive.  I’ve always enjoyed gear, used to use a POD XT Pro years ago for a function band, but since then I’ve been pretty much a nice pedalboard into a Landau Deville.

 

I bought a Helix just before lockdown as I wanted to video myself with a band playing live in a friend’s studio and my amp would be too loud, and I hadn’t even really heard of Capture X etc.

 

So, here I am now in 2023 looking at playing with a couple of bands and rehearsing.  I’ve been putting some effort into the Helix.  I have a studio and am very able to engineer, produce and mix my own music (I tend to use Scuffam S-Gear, and I’ve also started using my amps with a Capture x) so I understand how to try and get the Helix sounding good.  High / low pass etc.

 

BUT, in a live / rehearsal experience I am starting to lose faith with the Helix.  Yep it’s a great unit, but I’m not feeling the same ‘something’ that my amp gives me.  It’s almost like the Helix is in the ‘mix’ but it’s not ‘in the room’.  I almost feel like there just ‘something’ between the sound and my ears. 

 

Plus, I read a comment in this post where some guy said he’s getting great sounds and loving the Helix (and good on him for that, anyone who’s happy is a great thing) and he said “I’m only 1/64^th into discovering what it can do…”

 

Playing the guitar shouldn’t be about spending months learning how to use your gear, it’s about playing and being creative.  Like most modern things now, seems people, myself included, get caught up spending 90% of your time fiddling with gear / settings / online b*lllollipop, and 10% actually playing.  Surely it should be 90% playing and 10% tweaking of our sound. 

 

I’m probably sounding a bit miserable here as gigs are disappearing, venues are shutting, no one pays for music anymore, music has almost become just a hobby for many now, but I’m just starting to feel like I am not prepared to spend ANY more time fannying around getting sounds sorted, when the feel I am getting from the device is not inspiring me to really want to play.  I am talking about in a room / stage with others, not in my house at lower volume.

 

Maybe I need to sell the Helix. 

 

Use whatever twirls your beenie... if you want to be a tube amp and stomp box purist, and go back to dragging 200 lbs of gear to a gig...then have at it. There will always be those who can't get past the lack of the "amp in the room" component. So be it...

 

And yes, obsessively tweaking your sound(s) is an easy rabbit hole to fall into... but it's also easy to climb back out. Just stop doing it. Dial in the sounds you actuality need for whatever it is that you do, then hit "save" and walk away. If you wouldn't sit and fiddle with an analog rig for 37 hours straight trying to get everything "just right", then there's no need to do it with a modeler...ANY modeler. All the knobs are pretty much the same... the only difference is whether or not everything is crammed into the same box. Yes there's a learning curve at the beginning...but you only have to suffer through that once. Any time wasted after that is on you.

[Schmalle]

As far as real amp vs modeler I A/B'ed my Laney AOR tube amp against the HX's Brit2204 + class D amp into the same cab. I could make them sound and feel almost identical to me in that experiment.

 

I noticed that on several models the default sag is quite low when compared to the real deal or my AxeFxII. This can result in a too stiff or harsh sound.

Some models are great on default settings, most can be tweaked to sound and feel right and some just are just bad amps IMHO.

 

The whole FRFR thing has more parameters to it when compared to a powered cab. Basically what you want your FRFR to be is a good representation of the PA. And you want to find a filter (cab sim / IR / eq ) that makes it (and therefore the PA) sound like a cab you like.

[DunedinDragon]

On 5/20/2023 at 4:47 AM, Schmalle said:

 

The whole FRFR thing has more parameters to it when compared to a powered cab. Basically what you want your FRFR to be is a good representation of the PA. And you want to find a filter (cab sim / IR / eq ) that makes it (and therefore the PA) sound like a cab you like.

I think this is really the core of the problem that frustrates a lot of people.  I've never had any problem getting the tone I want through whatever amp and cab/ir models I use because I'm trying to match the sound I hear from either recorded or live performances (which are pretty much the same) not the stage sound which only the band hears.  That's relatively easy especially now since the release of 3.6.  Because of that it's much easier to get a good mix with all of the instruments for both the audience as well as through the stage monitors on a very consistent basis regardless of the style of music.  It certainly doesn't disappoint the audience because that's the sound they've always been used to hearing.

[Schmalle]

On 5/20/2023 at 11:55 AM, DunedinDragon said:

I think this is really the core of the problem that frustrates a lot of people.  I've never had any problem getting the tone I want through whatever amp and cab/ir models I use because I'm trying to match the sound I hear from either recorded or live performances (which are pretty much the same) not the stage sound which only the band hears.  That's relatively easy especially now since the release of 3.6.  Because of that it's much easier to get a good mix with all of the instruments for both the audience as well as through the stage monitors on a very consistent basis regardless of the style of music.  It certainly doesn't disappoint the audience because that's the sound they've always been used to hearing.

For me a big step was to use the York Audio Marshall V30A Mix1 as a reference point. It is the filter that connects my amp's speaker out or amp sims with a flat speaker (studio monitors) and sounds like the cab I love. It feels like being able to virtually go into the recording room and play through a real cab. Most amps sound great through it.

 

That said I use the Helix cabs quite a lot as a tone shaping tool - really fun stuff. And if you're after some recorded / in the mix tones that's a great way to get there.

[MGW-Alberta]

For me it was the 4 cable method.  I got my Helix in 2017 and I needed the amp-in-the-room sound and feel and nothing I tried got me there until I started using my amp.  It has a line out so I don't need to mic up.  I recently decided to give FRFR a second try because I was Jonesing for a stereo rig but it was disappointing again.  I can't afford a second amp right now so it's mono for me for the time being.

[craiganderton]

On 5/20/2023 at 5:58 PM, MGW-Alberta said:

I recently decided to give FRFR a second try because I was Jonesing for a stereo rig but it was disappointing again.

 

Perhaps there's a fundamental issue - FRFR is designed for a flat response, cabs are designed for a NOT flat response. Cabs have a variety of anomalies and boosts/cuts. The engineers who design FRFRs have total control over the electronic circuits that drive the speakers. They do everything they can to remove any anomalies, in order to obtain a flat response. It might be that you're missing the "warts" in FRFR.

 

Sure, the Helix emulates cabs, but if you're talking about physical wood vibrating in an acoustic space, software can't do that - even if you feed it with an impulse of physical wood vibrating in an acoustic space. 

 

 

[MGW-Alberta]

On 5/20/2023 at 6:26 PM, craiganderton said:

 

Perhaps there's a fundamental issue - FRFR is designed for a flat response, cabs are designed for a NOT flat response.

 

 

You hit the nail right on the head.  Guitar amplification isn't supposed to be flat ... or hi-fi ... or dynamically neutral.

[PeterHamm]

There continues to be a lot of misinformation about how this all works.

If you need the "amp in the room" for some reason (and you don't alway, even if you think you do), then you need an amp and a room. And yes a power amp into a standard guitar cab will often do the trick, but an FRFR will never be this. Ever.

If you need the "amp in the next room, miked up and coming through the PA or monitors", then a real amp in the room obviously won't give you that, and can sometimes be the wrong choice for the gig or the environment. For this you want the best FRFR you can get, and no the Alto or Headrush is never this.

[DunedinDragon]

On 5/20/2023 at 8:26 PM, craiganderton said:

 

Perhaps there's a fundamental issue - FRFR is designed for a flat response, cabs are designed for a NOT flat response. Cabs have a variety of anomalies and boosts/cuts. The engineers who design FRFRs have total control over the electronic circuits that drive the speakers. They do everything they can to remove any anomalies, in order to obtain a flat response. It might be that you're missing the "warts" in FRFR.

 

Sure, the Helix emulates cabs, but if you're talking about physical wood vibrating in an acoustic space, software can't do that - even if you feed it with an impulse of physical wood vibrating in an acoustic space. 

 

 

I honestly think that one of the key reasons I never felt I lost anything by moving away from physical cabinets is that I spent almost an equal amount of time over the years playing on stage and dialing in the consistent sound being heard by the audience from the PA or in a studio.  Those "warts" in a cabinet were always something I battled against as a soundman when playing on stage, so I was never happier than when I found out I could get there so simply just  using an FRFR approach.

[codamedia]

On 5/21/2023 at 2:12 PM, DunedinDragon said:

I honestly think that one of the key reasons I never felt I lost anything by moving away from physical cabinets is that I spent almost an equal amount of time over the years playing on stage and dialing in the consistent sound being heard by the audience from the PA or in a studio.  Those "warts" in a cabinet were always something I battled against as a soundman when playing on stage, so I was never happier than when I found out I could get there so simply just  using an FRFR approach.

 

That is my guitar playing life in a nutshell and as a "part time" sound tech/engineer I can easily relate to what you are saying.  

 

I learned from some masters back in the early 80's how to "turn down my amp" and start listening to my guitar how the audience hears it. Before the days of modeling I've always kept my amp quiet and monitored through my monitor wedge and side fills. I began dabbling with amp sims and modeling since the original sans amp in the 90's then the 100% move came with the Helix, and I've never skipped a beat in the transition.

 

I find it interesting... 

• The modelling forms are often full of users searching for the "amp in the room".
  Solution: Dumb down the modeler and play through a speaker of choice in a pine box. Or buy an amp!
• The tube amp forms are often full of users searching for their "favorite recorded tones".
  Solution: Add Mic(s), Position(s), pre-amps, compression, and varying degrees of post effects! Or buy a modeler!

 

[sineline6]

On 5/21/2023 at 2:57 PM, codamedia said:

 

That is my guitar playing life in a nutshell and as a "part time" sound tech/engineer I can easily relate to what you are saying.  

 

I learned from some masters back in the early 80's how to "turn down my amp" and start listening to my guitar how the audience hears it. Before the days of modeling I've always kept my amp quiet and monitored through my monitor wedge and side fills. I began dabbling with amp sims and modeling since the original sans amp in the 90's then the 100% move came with the Helix, and I've never skipped a beat in the transition.

 

I find it interesting... 

• The modelling forms are often full of users searching for the "amp in the room".
  Solution: Dumb down the modeler and play through a speaker of choice in a pine box. Or buy an amp!
• The tube amp forms are often full of users searching for their "favorite recorded tones".
  Solution: Add Mic(s), Position(s), pre-amps, compression, and varying degrees of post effects! Or buy a modeler!

 

As an ex audio engineer who was often telling people like you who would never listen to keep on-stage volumes down, I can tell you that after a few tries I'd give up and just let them have their crappy sound. There's so much talk about "amp in the room" but not nearly enough talk about how bad most bands sound on stage as a general rule. Guitarists aren't the only ones to blame, but I'd say that more often than not, they're the prime problem. Yeah, it might sound great to you as you're next to that cranked amp, but the end result is a poor quality mix for an audience. If it's feedback you're after, buy a Sustianiac. I swear by them. 

[craiganderton]

On 5/21/2023 at 2:12 PM, DunedinDragon said:

I honestly think that one of the key reasons I never felt I lost anything by moving away from physical cabinets is that I spent almost an equal amount of time over the years playing on stage and dialing in the consistent sound being heard by the audience from the PA or in a studio.

 

I hear ya. FWIW, I ditched guitar amps completely in 1968 (to be fair, tubes had really cratered in quality anyway) and switched to keyboard amps. They were the best you could in terms for FRFR at the time. My stage setup was two 100W RMI amps. Amazingly enough, they could even fill arenas.

 

My goal was to get the sound I wanted before hitting an input jack. As a result, the sound was the same whether playing live or in the studio. That made life a lot easier, especially when I started gigging with DJs in Europe in the 2000s - I could just patch right into the PA system, and all I needed was an AdrenaLinn, POD, and Vocoder (fed by drums). I could fit it all in a carry-on bag for a transatlantic flight. 

 

Does it sound like an amp in a room? To me, no. To the audience, yes. And they're the ones buying the tickets :)

[MGW-Alberta]

Clearly there is a whole lot of misconception about playing live and that's probably because playing live has changed in the last two decades but it wasn't always so.  When your amp is your stage monitor it doesn't matter if is mic'd up and going through the house mains or not.  It's still the amp in the room for you as the guitar player.  That still applies 100%.  Amp in the room has nothing to do with the audience whatsoever so all of these comments about what the audience hears are pointless with respect to this particular issue.  What the audience hears these days is you ... but it's you after the sound guy changes your precious gold tone to what he wants.  Amp in the room on the other hand, that has to do with you alone, the guitarist, interacting with your amplifier at stage volume and FRFRs simply do not, cannot provide that.  There is a personal and physical relationship between the amp and the guitarist that cannot be replicated with digital mastery.  What your hands are doing and how the strings respond to the circuitry and the SPL coming from the amp have a very real and very direct connection through your ears and to your brain.  When you hear and feel that interaction it affects how you play and that is the whole point of it.  That is why some guitarist speak of amp in the room.  It's got nothing to do with your sound through the house or into your DAW.  It is of crucial importance for guitarists who play by feel, rather than by memorization, repetition or rote.  Not all guitarists feel this interaction but for those who do the inescapable conclusion is that there is no substitute for an amplifier and Helix then becomes the coolest and most versatile pedal board in existence but it does not replace an amp.  The reason I feel it is because I am old school.  When I was coming up we only mic'd our amps for the big gigs.  Most of the time your sound came from what we now refer to as stage spill and the vox were pretty much the only thing that got mic'd.  You spend your youth playing in those conditions and then switch to digital because it is so damned versatile and has such a small stage footprint and the first thing you find lacking is the feel of your amp.  You feel lost without it.  You don't feel like a guitar hero any more.  You feel like a wimp.  It's about feel and if you did not cut your eye teeth the same way then I completely understand why you might think all this amp in the room business is a bunch of nonsense but for those of us who did come up that way I assure you it is VERY real.

[craiganderton]

Did a festival gig once going through a Bose L1. Amp in a room, or FRFR? I dunno, but what was really cool was with that column speaker, I could place the guitar parallel to the speakers and get awesome feedback :)  It felt like I had more physical interaction with that amp than I'd had for a long time with an actual guitar amp. But to be fair, it also had a bass bin that was blasting air, like an amp.

 

Frankly, if only guitar amps existed, I'd play through guitar amps. If only Helix and FRFR existed, they I'd play through that. Maybe I'm just not that much of a "feel" guy. I played through guitar amps throughout my high school and college years but when I went pro, I went direct through keyboard amps and never looked back. Because I straddled the world of studio/live, it was the perfect solution because it worked for both. So, when modelers came out and would let me take that to the next level, I was already primed.

 

This isn't to say that the feel of a guitar in a room isn't cool. But bringing the sound of the studio to the stage can be pretty darn cool, too...just in a different way. I've experienced both, and I truly believe it's a matter of personal preference.

[craiganderton]

One more thing...when I was gigging on guitar with DJs and electronic bands in Europe at the turn of the century, because I wasn't singing, I could be in front of the PA. Not only could I hear the guitar perfectly because I was going directly into the PA, I could hear it in relation to all the other instruments. I'd like to think this helped me contribute to a better overall mix. The guy running FOH just left me alone, nothing needed to be done because I knew EXACTLY what the audience was hearing. It was what I wanted to hear, too :)

 

It's all good...the right answer depends on the question that's being asked! If you're playing with a hard rock act at a festival, for 4,000 Germans whacked out on ecstasy, or at a local club with a rock band, I think the question and corresponding answer differ.

[codamedia]

On 5/21/2023 at 11:10 PM, MGW-Alberta said:

It's about feel and if you did not cut your eye teeth the same way then I completely understand why you might think all this amp in the room business is a bunch of nonsense but for those of us who did come up that way I assure you it is VERY real.

 

I was weened on Hiwatts & Marshalls in the late 70's & early 80's... I know what the feel of "amp in the room" is. 

 

I don't see anyone calling "amp in the room" nonsense. I don't dis anyone that likes that feel/sound on a stage, I just "prefer" to hear my guitar as the audience hears it.  I like that final, polished tone. Some of us made that transition at some points in our career, but that doesn't mean we don't have any experience as you are suggesting. It was just a choice we made.

[brue58ski]

On 5/21/2023 at 9:10 PM, MGW-Alberta said:

Clearly there is a whole lot of misconception about playing live and that's probably because playing live has changed in the last two decades but it wasn't always so.  When your amp is your stage monitor it doesn't matter if is mic'd up and going through the house mains or not.  It's still the amp in the room for you as the guitar player.  That still applies 100%.  Amp in the room has nothing to do with the audience whatsoever so all of these comments about what the audience hears are pointless with respect to this particular issue.  What the audience hears these days is you ... but it's you after the sound guy changes your precious gold tone to what he wants.  Amp in the room on the other hand, that has to do with you alone, the guitarist, interacting with your amplifier at stage volume and FRFRs simply do not, cannot provide that.  There is a personal and physical relationship between the amp and the guitarist that cannot be replicated with digital mastery.  What your hands are doing and how the strings respond to the circuitry and the SPL coming from the amp have a very real and very direct connection through your ears and to your brain.  When you hear and feel that interaction it affects how you play and that is the whole point of it.  That is why some guitarist speak of amp in the room.  It's got nothing to do with your sound through the house or into your DAW.  It is of crucial importance for guitarists who play by feel, rather than by memorization, repetition or rote.  Not all guitarists feel this interaction but for those who do the inescapable conclusion is that there is no substitute for an amplifier and Helix then becomes the coolest and most versatile pedal board in existence but it does not replace an amp.  The reason I feel it is because I am old school.  When I was coming up we only mic'd our amps for the big gigs.  Most of the time your sound came from what we now refer to as stage spill and the vox were pretty much the only thing that got mic'd.  You spend your youth playing in those conditions and then switch to digital because it is so damned versatile and has such a small stage footprint and the first thing you find lacking is the feel of your amp.  You feel lost without it.  You don't feel like a guitar hero any more.  You feel like a wimp.  It's about feel and if you did not cut your eye teeth the same way then I completely understand why you might think all this amp in the room business is a bunch of nonsense but for those of us who did come up that way I assure you it is VERY real.

 

This is one of the best descriptions of the amp in the room thing I have read. I've never really had a full on tube amp (tubes w/ transistors). But I have played through several and know exactly what you and others are talking about. It is one of the coolest, funnest things ever. But not totally necessary for me. I've been "direct" most of my guitar playing life. Once I got a Rockman, I've pretty much gone through a stereo/powered speaker to play, being just a bedroom rock & roller at the time. When I got to the point that I was playing in front of people, I was using a Sans Amp/Quadraverb setup. Then the GSP2101 with an Ampulator and a Peavy Rockmaster. I then became a Line 6 boy starting with the POD XT and stayed mainly because of the Variax I purchased. So although I do greatly appreciate and enjoy the amp in the room experience, I am just as happy with my Helix. Just me personally. Liking either is not a character flaw.

[DunedinDragon]

On 5/22/2023 at 8:10 AM, codamedia said:

 

I was weened on Hiwatts & Marshalls in the late 70's & early 80's... I know what the feel of "amp in the room" is. 

 

I don't see anyone calling "amp in the room" nonsense. I don't dis anyone that likes that feel/sound on a stage, I just "prefer" to hear my guitar as the audience hears it.  I like that final, polished tone. Some of us made that transition at some points in our career, but that doesn't mean we don't have any experience as you are suggesting. It was just a choice we made.

I might go a step further in saying there was never any feeling of "amp in the room" was nonsense back in the 60's, 70's and on.  That's all we knew and there really wasn't any viable alternative to it.  Even as the technology matured it was very hard to leave that paradigm behind because it was taking a huge step of faith into the great unknown.  Even as late as 2010 I would have thought if anyone had told me I'd be working in a band today with no amps on stage and everyone going direct to the mixing board using just stage monitors I'd say they were out of their minds.  And yet, here I am.  And it wasn't because I was so dissatisfied with what I had.  It was more about curiosity of what it could be.