Why Helix Native Needs a Standalone App

[soundog]

When running Native as a plug-in within a large DAW recording project, there's often a trade-off between monitoring through the plug-in/DAW vs latency (delay between playing the guitar and hearing the guitar through the software/hardware). In Logic, I often have to set my buffer up pretty high in order to prevent audio glitches if I want to monitor through Helix Native when recording a new guitar track. For me, its important to hear the sound of a guitar modeler and its effects in order to get the mojo of the track while recording. Yeah, I can use a guitar modeler in my Apollo Twin DSP, and monitor that in real-time, but its not the same. It's workable but not ideal. That's a big trade-off.

 

I recently bought a copy of S-Gear (another popular amp/cabinet and effects modeler). Its not as extensive as Helix Native, but for the included amps I actually prefer its tone and response. But the HUGE benefit is that the software includes a stand-alone application identical to the DAW plug-in. Now I can set up routing through my audio interface so that I can monitor the sound of the S-Gear amps and effects through the standalone app with very low latency (8.5 ms), while recording the guitar along with my existing Logic tracks. I can leave my Logic buffer set high for large track and virtual instrument counts, and still have low latency when monitoring my amped guitar. Its delicious. And, like Native, I can choose to record the raw track, or the S-Gear processed track.

 

Sadly, Helix Native does not include a standalone app. If there was one (and it would need to be a low-latency application), users would be able to 1) monitor their guitar modeling with near zero latency when recording tracks and 2) play through the app without having to fire up their DAW, load the plug-in, etc.

 

P.S. There are standalone apps that will host plug-ins out there. That might work for this usage, but I haven't tested it. Worth a try!

 

[Digital_Igloo]

We're not diametrically opposed to making a standalone version of Helix Native. It's just a lot of work, and we have to pick our battles. Voting it up on IdeaScale is your best bet to get the proper eyes (and metrics) on it.

[soundog]

Okee dokee, did that. There are 4 separate suggestions for Native standalone. So vote for all. If you total 'em there are over 60 votes, so not too shabby.

 

https://line6.ideascale.com/a/ideas/search?templateId=0&query=standalone+native

[zolko60]

On 7/13/2019 at 1:59 AM, soundog said:

When running Native as a plug-in within a large DAW recording project, there's often a trade-off between monitoring through the plug-in/DAW vs latency

Really? I have not notice any benefit latency wise by using standalone "plugins" vs DAW/Host hosted. Pro Tools may be the exception with its CPU heavy engine.
Third party hosting is also beneficial. You can workaround all HxN limitations and integrate it with the best in their class plugins.
So for me there are two possible reasons of making stand alone plugins.
The first is a convienience for unexperienced users not using DAWs.
The second is full controll meant by two way MIDI or whatever other communication protocol. It is easy to control HxN by the controller but it is not easy to control the controller. When you change preset or snapshot you may eg. expect the software to send at least CCs that illuminate controller switches. As far as I know there are no plans to make Native compete the hardware Hx versions in live usage.

[soundog]

The method I'm using is beneficial because the buffer (and, hence, latency) is set independently in the standalone app (S-Gear) and the DAW. To further explain: I'm currently recording a large project in Logic Pro that requires a lot of horsepower, so I have my buffer set high (1028) to accomodate virtual instruments and plugs. Of course, if I try to record a HXN guitar track with software monitoring on, the latency is unacceptable. So, I'm  using the S-Gear (git modeling) standalone app concurrently, with its buffer low (32), so getting minimal latency while playing. I monitor the guitar through S-Gear, while recording the raw track in Logic (using the S-Gear plug-in later, while mixing). This is all achieved via Apollo Twin console I/O routing.

[zolko60]

14 hours ago, soundog said:

the buffer (and, hence, latency) is set independently in the standalone app (S-Gear) and the DAW

You mean OSX? I have never seen independently set buffers for ASIO drivers on Windows. All my interfaces have common buffer setting for all ASIO clients. Is this specific for Apollo Core Audio OSX driver?

[soundog]

OSX CoreAudio must be multiclient, so multiple CoreAudio hosts can communicate with HW at the same time. In this case, the S-Gear app and the Logic app buffers can be set independently. There is no buffer setting in the Apollo driver to my knowledge (at least in my Thunderbolt rig); it uses dynamic buffering.

 

So maybe my method mentioned here is only good for Mac users?

 

 

[Kvaksalver]

Upvoted!

[rafaelxgoncalves]

I would be nice to have a standalone version. For all the reasonns mentioned above, and sometimes I just want to pick the guitar, plug it it, and practice with a good tone. And don't have to open any DAW would be nice...

[loonsailor]

There are a bunch of non-DAW vst hosts for this very purpose.  I've got no real experience with them, but google "vst host" and you'll find a bunch, including free ones, for mac, windows and linux.

 

If you don't want to google, check out https://hiphopmakers.com/best-free-vst-host-applications, or https://www.kvraudio.com/plugins/windows/macosx/linux/vst-plugins/vst3-plugins/audio-units/aax-plugins/rack-extensions/hosts/free/most-popular.

[popalle]

Hi all,

sorry for necroing this thread but before spamming a new one here we go:

i too would love to use Helix Native in standalone mode (given it runs on the dsp's on my hardware). Just bought it today and love it soundwise. But recording in an "advanced" Cubase-Project with a lot of mixwork already done requires me to turn off some of the Plug-ins. Especially the Steinberg Multiband Compressor. I get around 116ms of (Channel-)latency from this bad boy. No recording possible without searching through the inserts (or displaying the channel latency) and turning the culprits off.

I'm waiting for the Registration process for Line6-ideas to finish to vote on this. But i couldnt wait to give my 2 cents here. Lets get it done.

For now i'll stick to Podfarm for Recording(+feedback) and later use Helix Native in the Mix on the clean signal. Kind of a shame because Helix Native sounds THAT good.

For good measure my specs:

I5 6600 / 16GB Ram / Windows 10 Pro / Line6 KB37 / Steinberg URC22 / Cubase 10

Have a good one

[iamlarry]

If this were available as a stand alone app, and they made it possible to create patches that could be exported to hardware (e.g. pod go, hx effects, etc.) I'd be all over this!

[shmihe]

It needs to be said, that there needs to be a stand-alone version of Helix Native.

 

There is just too many options and great sounds in Helix, to have to be messing around with a DAW open all the time too. It is far easier to deal directly with just Helix for programming a preset, or just jamming/practicing with it.

 

Amp sims/companies with a stand-alone:

Positive Grid - Bias Amp 2, FX 2, & Pedal 

Peavey ReValver

Overloud/TH-U 

Waves GTR3.5

Mercuriall

Kuassa (all, singles and together)

Audiority

 BBE 

Scuffham S-Gear

Blue Cat Axiom

IK Multimedia Amplitube

Audiffex AmpLion Pro

Nembrini (all in a host)

[scottbronder]

I vote for a hard yes on this one!

[rdbell]

+1 for standalone app.

 

In the meantime, KushView's Element is the best option I've found for lightweight audio routing through HelixNative: https://kushview.net

[soundog]

Well, the price is right if it works! I use Gig Performer for hosting plug-ins (which is very evolved and advanced), but Element is surely a lot more affordable if you just need to host Helix Native (for example).

 

 

[timchandler1]

I vote YES PLEASE for a standalone for the Helix Native.

 

[silverhead]

4 hours ago, timchandler1 said:

I vote YES PLEASE for a standalone for the Helix Native.

 

The way to vote is through Ideascale as noted above. Did you vote there? Your ‘vote’ here is no vote at all.

[soundog]

Thanks, Silverhead. There are 4 separate suggestions for Native standalone if you do a search. So vote for them all to improve your chances of winning. ;-)

 

https://line6.ideascale.com/a/ideas/search?templateId=0&query=standalone+native

[Hillman1312]

Would be nice to have indeed. I use Ableton rather than Logic on a mac M1. I don't do anything crazy like lot's of CPU heavy plugins so can run HXN with low enough latency. Same is true for Mainstage which also works great with HXN. 

 

Perhaps an option (workaround) is to disengage your CPU heavy plugins when recording your guitar tracks and only use a high buffer size in the mixing stage. In Ableton there is a "Freeze" option that you can use, not sure if anything similar is available in Logic. It essentially produces a temporary wave-file from the tracks with your plugins so that they don't eat away your available CPU. Although at present I din't need it that also works great. Alternatively, why not use one of the built-in amps in Logic when recording? They may not sound as good as HXN, but once you have recorded the guitar DI signal it's pretty easy to replace the Logic amp with the Helix amp.

 

just some thoughts .. hope it helps

[soundog]

Yes, there is also a Freeze function in Logic. Its a bit of a PITA workaround, but it does work in a pinch. And your suggestion to use one of Logic's built in amps is a good one. Still, I am so used to using other amp sim plug-ins (Neural DSP, S-Gear, etc) that have a Standalone mode that I surely do miss Native not having the same.

[surfsup1955]

On 2/14/2022 at 8:08 AM, Hillman1312 said:

Would be nice to have indeed. I use Ableton rather than Logic on a mac M1. I don't do anything crazy like lot's of CPU heavy plugins so can run HXN with low enough latency. Same is true for Mainstage which also works great with HXN. 

 

Perhaps an option (workaround) is to disengage your CPU heavy plugins when recording your guitar tracks and only use a high buffer size in the mixing stage. In Ableton there is a "Freeze" option that you can use, not sure if anything similar is available in Logic. It essentially produces a temporary wave-file from the tracks with your plugins so that they don't eat away your available CPU. Although at present I din't need it that also works great. Alternatively, why not use one of the built-in amps in Logic when recording? They may not sound as good as HXN, but once you have recorded the guitar DI signal it's pretty easy to replace the Logic amp with the Helix amp.

 

just some thoughts .. hope it helps

 

That is a really good idea.  I just installed HN today and have to run the buffer at 128 minimum and it still has a faint lag… mostly in the feel of playing.  Still annoying.  Tones are really good though.  Looking for all ideas.. thanks?

[Qu13tus]

I just purchased Helix Native since I have a registered Helix Floor and with the current sale, HN was $30 off and thus I couldn't resist. However, in my haste, I failed to see that there isn't a standalone version. I do not regret my purchase as I am trying to collect every tool that could help me with my projects, but it would definitely be better to have a standalone version. I am still researching DAWs and don't know how to use any of them, yet. I am trying to find the right balance between my guitars/variax, PC/laptops, Jam Origin Midi Guitar, and plugins. I am glad to have HN at such a great price, though I probably won't get much use out of it until I learn how to use a DAW. For now, I will be using my physical Helix and HX Edit on my PC and my travel laptop. Here is hoping for a standalone release. I imagine it to be like HX Edit but with HN and more functions that the physical Helix has that are not accessible in HX Edit (tuners and what not.)

[surfsup1955]

There has been discussion on that subject here and there, not sure if L6 will be doing that though?  I feel they should label the product more accurately.. something like “Helix Plug In for DAWs” lol.  Having watched several HN YouTube videos it really isn’t clear that the product is a plug in  - most screen shots make it look like an app?  

 

However, after a few days of using it inside Logic Pro I can tell you it’s pretty much a game changer for tones and recording functionality - acoustic guitar IR tones (HN with Logic Pro EQs) are, for me, some of the best acoustic tones I’ve dialed in to date.  Also, I’ve found, it’s best to just build new presets for HN.  The ones off my floor unit were ok in HN but not great.  Makes sense since my floor unit presets are set up for FOH mono, whereas I am building stereo tones in my DAW.

[kmcnall]

I agree a stand-alone app is needed, if only for testing.   

 

Especially right now, when Native is not working with new Apple OS and HW, it would be really great to be able to see what's going on with the app independent of your DAW.

[surfsup1955]

Working great with mine.. maybe I’m not up to date on OS?

[Papanate]

I am on a Mac - I don't see the need for a stand along app - it might be fun to play with - but all my recording and playing is don't with my DAW - Logic Pro - and I don't have any latency issues at all. Aside from the Fun To Use point of view - is there any advantage to having it be a stand alone app?

[soundog]

Yes, there are advantages. With standalone support (S-Gear, for example) I just plug in my guitar and play. Without standalone support, I have to launch Logic, create an audio track, select the correct audio input, open the Native plug-in and play.

 

Another example. If I am running a large Logic project that requires me to use a large buffer size, monitoring through Native introduces long/bothersome latency times. But if I'm using S-Gear, I can open up a copy of S-Gear running standalone, and run it with a low buffer size (and monitor my guitar through it). Latency problem solved.

 

All of my other amp sims provide a standalone mode. Native does not. I wish that it did.

[usedbyanr]

Has anyone looked at Cantabile?

 

https://www.cantabilesoftware.com/

[soundog]

Cantabile or Gig Performer (my preference) work nicely if you want to use Helix Native for live performance.

[SkinDoc]

I used BIAS FX2 before Helix Native. It has a stand alone app that has all the already-stated benefits, but it also is very useable with MIDI.

 

I have a Nektar Pacer controller, and I could do most things in BFX2 - most importantly I could change presets!

 

How hard is it to fix the problem with presets in Helix? Without that ability, using Helix in a live situation is significantly impaired.

 

AND - why run a massive DAW on your laptop and increase the risk of glitches, when you can run a simple app?

[soundog]

Right on! Keep voting for this on IdeaScale (as discussed above). Its seems almost silly to have to vote, though. Do people have to vote to have access to roads?  Or toothbrushes? Every amp sim I am running these days has a standalone app. Except Helix Native.

[PierM]

On 12/9/2022 at 12:49 AM, soundog said:

Right on! Keep voting for this on IdeaScale (as discussed above). Its seems almost silly to have to vote, though. Do people have to vote to have access to roads?  Or toothbrushes? Every amp sim I am running these days has a standalone app. Except Helix Native.

 

Looks like votes are locked? Getting this message;

 

Community is set to Read Only. Any update operation is not allowed.

[soundog]

Working for me here...

 

update: Wrong. Not working.

[datacommando]

On 12/9/2022 at 5:37 PM, soundog said:

Working for me here...

 

 I have the same message as "PierM", even though there are several results listed from different users :- 

 

Community is set to Read Only. Any update operation is not allowed.

I initially thought that maybe they were locked because the idea was "In Review", but it seems not. No votes are being added.

[HeadsnapTV]

up, up, up VOTE up Stand Alone Version PLEASE! ZERO complaints about the $$ its well worth the 100$ - $400 to have this accessable and not need to unpack hardware.... But a STAND ALONE version is just Next Level PLEASE..........

HeadsnapTV

[soundog]

OK, just bought a TONEX pedal. It includes the software/plug-in version of TONEX. Guess what? TONEX includes a standalone version of the software. Every guitar amp modeler/profiler that I have purchased in the past 5 years (Helix Native, several Neural DSP, S-Gear, and TONEX) includes a standalone software version except for Helix Native.

 

I think that's just silly. And perhaps even inexcusable.

[soundog]

On 7/13/2019 at 8:50 PM, Digital_Igloo said:

We're not diametrically opposed to making a standalone version of Helix Native. It's just a lot of work, and we have to pick our battles. Voting it up on IdeaScale is your best bet to get the proper eyes (and metrics) on it.

DI - I doubt Line 6 folks like yourself read these posts, but if you do see this, here's the deal. 1) All of the competitors for Helix Native provide a standalone mode. The reasons are obvious. It's not an "idea," its an essential feature. 2) User comments in this thread speak for themselves. Listen. 3) IdeaScale is a hurdle IMO - it's a bit of a pain to sign up for and use, is, and often broken. Do you really use it to prioritize features, or is it an appeasement? 4) If you search IdeaScale requests for standalone, you will find multiple threads for the same thing (add 'em up), and filter for Helix Native only. 5) All of your competitors provide standalone. 6) All of your competitors provide standalone.

[pvdmac]

I use AU Lab on MAC. Its free and I've never had any problems with it.