Jump to content
lespaul79

Very disappointed.

Recommended Posts

Great idea, great effects but missed the mark for playing live!

 

Long lag between patches or lack of spillover is a huge issue. This would not be a huge issue if you could assign switch canceling in stomp mode to deactivate one switch by pressing another.

 

I wanted to use this for the effects and amp switching for my JVM. There are several instances where I need to go to a clean channel with chorus and delay and then back to a overdrive channel without chorus and delay. As of now, there only two ways of doing it. Presets with long lag or tap dancing two buttons in stomp mode. The G System nails this but it lacks the effect quality.

 

Are there any plans to do something about these issues because I know I'm not the only one dealing with them? For $1500 this should be able to cover all possibilities!!

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, the gap between presets is something that every modeler on the market currently has. There are different scheme to do what you want to do. With the Helix, especially for effects-only like you're talking about, you should be able to accomplish what you want by switching between multiple paths in a preset (no tap dancing). You could control the output level of two paths by the same footswitch, and you could have the channel switching for your amp controlled by that same footswitch, so you could actually still do this all with one footswitch press.

 

Also, though, doesn't the JVM itself have a slight audible gap when you change channels? I have seen other people mention that when talking about these amps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Are there any plans to do something about these issues because I know I'm not the only one dealing with them? For $1500 this should be able to cover all possibilities!!

 

I think it is safe to take phil_m response as a "no" :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

?......

 

I think it is safe to take phil_m response as a "no" :(

That's not what he said at all. He offered a way to do what's wanted in the current situation. He said nothing about Line 6 plans in this regard because he doesn't know them any more than you or I do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, the JVM does have a small gap but nothing like the Helix. If the helix had a spillover we would be golden but that is not the case. The G System patch change is instant or seams to be instant with spillover.

 

As for a multiple paths, that would work if I were staying in the same amp channel but the switch will only send one midi command to my JVM. It will not send one command on dim and another command on lit. I've tried to get the JVM to respond but doesn't pick it up. Do you know a way to get the JVM to respond to midi send on dim and on lit?

 

If they could add the choice for switch canceling in stomp mode that would work perfect! I am sure they could add that function in the next update????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's not what he said at all. He offered a way to do what's wanted in the current situation. He said nothing about Line 6 plans in this regard because he doesn't know them any more than you or I do.

So a definite "no" then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So a definite "no" then.

 

Haha... Nope...

 

I'm limited as to what I can disclose as I'm under and NDA with Line 6 (along with all the Expert Users here).

 

The issues talked about in this post aren't anything new, and I can assure you that Line 6 isn't just ignoring them. I can't say anything else beyond that.

 

My original response was simply an attempt to offer a possible solution that might work now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, the JVM does have a small gap but nothing like the Helix. If the helix had a spillover we would be golden but that is not the case. The G System patch change is instant or seams to be instant with spillover.

 

As for a multiple paths, that would work if I were staying in the same amp channel but the switch will only send one midi command to my JVM. It will not send one command on dim and another command on lit. I've tried to get the JVM to respond but doesn't pick it up. Do you know a way to get the JVM to respond to midi send on dim and on lit?

 

If they could add the choice for switch canceling in stomp mode that would work perfect! I am sure they could add that function in the next update????

 

Oh, I was thinking you were using the amp relay connection on the Helix to change channels on the JVM... Sorry. So does the JVM need one PC message to change to the gain channel and another to change back to clean?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Phil,

 

Yes! MIDI is how I'm changing the channels. I am hoping they address this on another update but for now, it's not for me!!! I was very hopeful because this thing is outstanding with the effects quality and easy to set up but without the spillover or having the ability to cancel one switch from another in stomp mode makes it useless for me!!

 

Phil, I do appreciate your input! That's why I posted this in hopes of the great minds would have found a solution!!! But, by design so far, it's not possible!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed that the patch lag is WORSE than the HD500X. I'm probably actually gonna keep my Helix at home/practice and gig with the HD for a few more weeks because  to do the switching I need to, its now much more of a dance to turn things off and on in the background when clean/dirt channels are switched, having to build song-specific patches to avoid spillover. Mostly, I'm pretty pissed that for live use, I'm basically limited to one clean amp and one dirty amp if I want seamless patch changes, or dealing with a long, non-musical gap if I want to use two amps. My guitars sound great with a combo of the Meteor and the Panama, but switching from a patch with both to a clean with delay, chorus, compression, reverb (and sometimes more, depending on the song) takes too freaking long. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Haha... Nope...

 

I'm limited as to what I can disclose as I'm under and NDA with Line 6 (along with all the Expert Users here).

 

The issues talked about in this post aren't anything new, and I can assure you that Line 6 isn't just ignoring them. I can't say anything else beyond that.

 

My original response was simply an attempt to offer a possible solution that might work now.

Thanks for that. It is much appreciated. I do use the Helix live. I am in a classic rock covers band and will be happily using it tonight for the first time at a gig. Because of the material I play, and the use of a JTV89F, switching presets is the only way to go for me and so the lag when switching patches is inconvenient. That being said, it sounds great and I am happy to have it. Nothing is perfect and so I have modified the timing of the patch changes to get the best out of it that I can. Any improvement in the delay time would be a help though :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's already a post about this - There may be some additional info:

http://line6.com/support/topic/17047-noticeable-delay-when-switching-patches/

Yep. From that thread:

 

The reason something like a Zoom G3 can switch super fast is because it's running a relatively simple fixed signal flow with relatively tiny models with relatively few parameters. It's kind of like asking:

 

"Why does it take four days for The Anaheim Convention Center to get everyone's NAMM booths out and swapped for the next convention when it took my buddy and I an afternoon to swap out his entertainment center?"

The amount of data that Helix needs to remove and then add when switching patches is potentially gargantuan—upwards of a thousand values or more. Regardless, there are always things we can do to improve things. Helix is far from baked.

 

Also, don't forget about 8 TEMPLATES > 02C TwoTones A-B that lets you instantly switch between two tones with zero gap and spillover delay+reverb, 8 TEMPLATES > 02D TwoTones Blend that lets you manually crossfade between two tones with the expression pedal, or 8 TEMPLATES > 03D 4 Tone Switcher that lets you turn four completely discrete serial tones on and off with zero gap.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do find on simple presets with only a few blocks it's quite instantaneous, like factory 05c to 06c (still on firmware 1.04 here).

Presumably the less it has to load the quicker it is, and using the same path and block layout seems to be a factor. Wondering if only using say 6 mono blocks which one dsp can easily handle, it's a bit quicker loading if you split the blocks between both dsps. For instance, Volume pedal, wah, compressor, amp on path 1, output to path 2a for delay, reverb. I don't need a lot for my 8 basic do all coverband presets. Bottom row, Clean, dirty clean, drive, heavy rock, then top row big lush clean, Cleanish solo, big solo minus a few db, big solo. Then a few specific song presets. Seems as though keeping say the reverb block settings the same in each preset, with varying mix, and in the exact same position (say position 6 on 2a) also helps, but I maybe imagining things!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm hoping that as the unit ages code will be optimized and this won't be an issue forever. The change latency on the HD500 when it was released was pretty much unusable, too, but a few firmware updates later and it was NEARLY instantaneous. 

 

I just really don't like that I can build these lush, beautiful clean patches and these thick, defined multi-amp distortion patches, but I can't actually use them live because I can't fit everything into one preset, so I'm stuck with "usable" versions with stripped down effects and single amp chains so I can switch clean/dirty without a hiccup.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There will never be spillover on this unit, though, just as there isn't on Axe and there isn't on Kemper. Comparing it to the G system, which doesn't have amp modeling, or the Zoom, which is a whole different class of product, is unfair.

 

But using an amp, especially, it seems to me that with judicious use of footswitches you could set something up within one patch where you have a BUNCH of different tonal possibilities and FX "groups" so that for many uses you simply won't have to switch patches, you can do it all within one patch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we have become overly spoiled and all developed a sense of entitlement with all of today's technology. I am not pointing at anyone and I include myself in this. I just look at the bands I did sound for in the very late 70's as a teen and off and on through the 80s. We often ran our amps flat out and used volume on the guitar or a volume pedal to do clean tones. Stomp boxes of any type could cause massive changes is mix volume. As a sound guy we had to know every song as well as the band and know when to adjust. Now we expect devices to normalize volumes for us because some lesser device can do it, or even things like zero issues between two devices even though no compatibility is promised. Why? Because technology has advanced to the point where sometimes all the above is possible . This is just an observation. I do the same as everyone else even though I lived through a time when it all was done by the techs. Computers and processors are amazing but I feel sometimes I need to,step back and just say "Hey, I can deal,with this".

 

Please guys..do not take offense. It is really not aimed at anyone at all. Like I said, I am a terrible offender here. I was thinking last night the new Timmy is way to noisy. I wanted to turn it on and go. Not adjust it. (As a former Tim and Timmy owner it is a bit noisier than it should be..lol).

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we have become overly spoiled and all developed a sense of entitlement with all of today's technology. I am not pointing at anyone and I include myself in this. I just look at the bands I did sound for in the very late 70's as a teen and off and on through the 80s. We often ran our amps flat out and used volume on the guitar or a volume pedal to do clean tones. Stomp boxes of any type could cause massive changes is mix volume. As a sound guy we had to know every song as well as the band and know when to adjust. Now we expect devices to normalize volumes for us because some lesser device can do it, or even things like zero issues between two devices even though no compatibility is promised. Why? Because technology has advanced to the point where sometimes all the above is possible . This is just an observation. I do the same as everyone else even though I lived through a time when it all was done by the techs. Computers and processors are amazing but I feel sometimes I need to,step back and just say "Hey, I can deal,with this".

 

Please guys..do not take offense. It is really not aimed at anyone at all. Like I said, I am a terrible offender here. I was thinking last night the new Timmy is way to noisy. I wanted to turn it on and go. Not adjust it. (As a former Tim and Timmy owner it is a bit noisier than it should be..lol).

 

I feel bad for people that aren't old enough to appreciate this perspective. Not their fault or anything like that. But they just don't have the advantage of not taking technology for granted. They can get a sense of it by studying technological history, but is that something they even teach in schools nowadays? And if they don't, how many people would actually want to learn about it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There will never be spillover on this unit, though, just as there isn't on Axe and there isn't on Kemper. Comparing it to the G system, which doesn't have amp modeling, or the Zoom, which is a whole different class of product, is unfair.

 

But using an amp, especially, it seems to me that with judicious use of footswitches you could set something up within one patch where you have a BUNCH of different tonal possibilities and FX "groups" so that for many uses you simply won't have to switch patches, you can do it all within one patch.

 

Which is how I'm handling setting up my live patches right now. I'd prefer to be able to use the dual OD amp tones I have for home playing live, but there is too much lag between them and there isn't room in the DSP to fit my clean patches with the various delays/verbs/modulations on the same patch. Also, in doing it with a dual-chain patch for clean/dirty there starts to be more stomps required to turn things off/on between settings. What I was doing on the HD500 and my Boss modelers before that was to have sometimes up to four patches/per song with my main OD on patch one, clean w/mod/delay on patch 2, clean with chorus/verb on patch 3, and clean with every effect available on patch 4 to cover all the different parts of a song without having to ever turn an effect on/off, meaning no tap dancing. As it stands, I have to remember everytime I switch to a distortion channel that I need to turn off the delay and reverb on the clean channel, then turn on the phaser for the next time the clean part comes in, then turn that off when I switch back, then remember to turn the delay and chorus and verb back on before the next clean section.....so instead of three stomps to do all my switching, not I have to do three for each section, remember to do it while I'm playing the dirty parts, then remember to undo it and add in different things before the next clean part.

 

I understand not everyone requires this type of all-over-the-place switching, but for the music I play, sometimes I'm, literally switching effects/channels/everything a quarter note/half-measure at a time, so as it stands, I'm having to dance around ALMOST as much as if I had analog pedals and a multi-loop patch bay....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

im not using this as a modeler! This is just being used an effects board with midi amp switching. If they could implement the ability to assign switch canceling in stomp mode that cancels the assigned effect to a certain switch from another switch, would solve my problem completely. I don't think that would use to much DSP. Until then I will stick with the g system for now which is a shame becuase the effects on here are second to known really.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel bad for people that aren't old enough to appreciate this perspective. Not their fault or anything like that. But they just don't have the advantage of not taking technology for granted.

I consider myself lucky. I'm old enough to have been forced to deal with and learn how to use real mixers, real compressors, real effects sends and returns with real rackmount effects processors, real samplers, real MIDI interfaces with SMPTE and MTC sync... I feel that knowledge has given me a leg up in production, mixing, and engineering.

 

But I'm young enough to have never had to deal with tape-based recording. Avoided the whole analog tape and ADAT days and jumped straight into an Akai DR4d (circa-'95). Only 16 minutes of 4-track recording, but it could edit and loop!

 

$_1.JPG

  • Upvote 2
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DI,

You do NOT know what you were missing with 8-track reel to reel and Smart FSK (which I had before I had SMPTE). Funny thing is, I think my favorite recordings might have been made with that rig.

I had one of these babies...

soundsavers_104-1024x682.jpg

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Love those ADAT tape days...

 

Then I had an Alesis HD24.

Before I gave it to a buddy, I had rigged it with converter chips in the 4 caddies I owned so that I could use serial ATA laptop drives in it. I was in hog heaven with all that recording drive space.

 

My buddy still uses it when people have analog boards for live recording setups. That was a damn good machine!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's my first multi-track recorder. Casette based! Four-track bouncing to your heart's content!

 

recorder.png

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I had a cheap Tascam four track. Got so many bounces before the quality went to crap. LoL!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DI,

You do NOT know what you were missing with 8-track reel to reel and Smart FSK (which I had before I had SMPTE). Funny thing is, I think my favorite recordings might have been made with that rig.

I had one of these babies...soundsavers_104-1024x682.jpg

Yep. Just sounds wonderful and made you work harder, cleverer. You have made me sad...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey, oldies!

Is this the place for dealing musical scrap ;) ? I really was looking for a place like that :D :lol: :D -

and where did I find it??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There will never be spillover on this unit, though, just as there isn't on Axe and there isn't on Kemper. Comparing it to the G system, which doesn't have amp modeling, or the Zoom, which is a whole different class of product, is unfair.

 

But using an amp, especially, it seems to me that with judicious use of footswitches you could set something up within one patch where you have a BUNCH of different tonal possibilities and FX "groups" so that for many uses you simply won't have to switch patches, you can do it all within one patch.

 

I agree with all of you up here.. When you got less you HAVE to work harder and be more creative, somehow all this tech makes you a bit lazier..

PeterHamm: I don't know about Axe, but I do know that Kemper (I got one) has spillover.. actually you can select if you want it or if you don't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Luxury!

tb72.jpg

 

58db SNR. "Tell that to kids today, and they wouldn't believe you!"

 post-2287523-0-97487500-1454147159_thumb.jpg

 

Shucks, I remember when we had to wind wire around a spool to record; uphill in both directions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shucks, I remember when we had to wind wire around a spool to record; uphill in both directions.

 

With no shoes through 3 feet of snow in the heat of summer...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For amps that cannot switch channels via control change (where you could define two alternating values in one helix foot switch) it could be great to have the ability to assign optionsl TWO program change values on s FS, one for on, one for off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those were the days. I used to have 2 ADATs in my studio when they first came out, logged many hours with mainly Rap artists. Unfortunately, I held those machines so long that they became even worthless to ship used. It was a sad day when I took both ADAT machines to the electronics dump...  (sorry to contribute to the continual thread hijack)

 


... Avoided the whole analog tape and ADAT days...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's my first DAW

whirlwind-machine.jpg

This would be a AAW then - don't see any Digital devices in there ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes! MIDI is how I'm changing the channels...

 

be happy...cause ext. amp switching doesn´t work with many, manmy amps...;-(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...