Digital_Igloo 1,107 Posted March 31, 2016 Hi All, Who here would be interested in wireless VDI for $999? Not "oh, that'd be cool—you should make that!" but "I'd pay $999 for wireless VDI were it available today." $999 is just an educated guess at this point and is based on three required G70-level channels: Models, Magnetics, and a back data channel for remote capability. Assume traditional guitars could work with the system as well. Thanks! 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rocco_Crocco 147 Posted March 31, 2016 $1K... not for me. Probably $400 would be the magic number for me. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcbeddall 109 Posted March 31, 2016 Hmm not for me, out of my price range really , but then I've never really had an urge to go wireless anyhow. The vdi cable is the only thing stopping me from crowd surfing my way through all my solo's, and really it's better for everybody if it stays that way for now 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DarrellM5 170 Posted April 1, 2016 Too steep for me as well, but I'm not a gigging musician. If I did play gigs I'd definitely be willing to pay that amount. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Charlie_Watt 432 Posted April 1, 2016 Too much for that capability. I paid less than that for my JTV. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MartinDorr 86 Posted April 1, 2016 Same here. I wonder though about an all around wireless guitar with a sufficiently large battery to run both the Variax electronics and the wireless transceiver, combined with an easy to use guitar charging dock,i.e., you put your guitar on the stand and whole things gets recharged without having to through the trouble of plugging in. That together might get the attraction you need for the price point. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevekc 185 Posted April 1, 2016 Id pay $999, but only if the channel count was 9 channel minimum ( 1 channel for Mag PU, 1 channel for existing Variax Modeling, add another 6 channels for each string, one bi-di AES67/ OSC / MIDI control channel , and be "plug & play" infratructure ready for a future next gen version of Variax with individual string processing definable by the user. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jandrio 459 Posted April 1, 2016 i'll seriously consider buying an 1.4K helix unit provided it offers wireless vdi plus storing the JTV model parameters on each helix patch.btw, i think u can do vdi-wireless with only two channels:normally, when (remotely) changing jtv models from helix/hd500 the guitarist DOES NOT need sound, so the remote-control-data-channel can b encapsulated within one of the two audio channels (models + magnetics) INTERRUPTING THE SOUND WHEN RECEIVING DATA.this is a 2/3 cheaper solution, but has the abv limitation.of course, I don't know the exact /actual specs, so i'll quite happily be wrong... :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snhirsch 91 Posted April 1, 2016 At $999? Not a chance. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Palico 132 Posted April 1, 2016 Too steep for me. It would be a nice to have but not worth that much. Can go wireless without the VDI much cheaper already, if I really really wanted wireless. Now like someone said put into Helix along with Helix getting a DT integration. Then that might be enough extra features and sound improvement to get me to upgrade the my rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
line-6-user 9 Posted April 1, 2016 More likely $200 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Digital_Igloo 1,107 Posted April 1, 2016 i'll seriously consider buying an 1.4K helix unit provided it offers wireless vdi plus storing the JTV model parameters on each helix patch. btw, i think u can do vdi-wireless with only two channels: normally, when (remotely) changing jtv models from helix/hd500 the guitarist DOES NOT need sound, so the remote-control-data-channel can b encapsulated within one of the two audio channels (models + magnetics) INTERRUPTING THE SOUND WHEN RECEIVING DATA. this is a 2/3 cheaper solution, but has the abv limitation. of course, I don't know the exact /actual specs, so i'll quite happily be wrong... :) We already embed transmitter data wirelessly (battery life, etc.), but the issue is back channel data, which is meant to send data from the receiver (and presumably any Helix or POD connected to the receiver) back to the guitar. This would require a third channel because it's going in the opposite direction. Bluetooth and Wifi aren't fast enough alternatives. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigChas52 2,546 Posted April 1, 2016 I think $999 is a fair price for the capability, considering that it is a simultaneous 3 channel transmitter/receiver. That said, I believe most Vax owners would have no real need for it, or desire to pay that much for it. Would it chew up digital channels in a multi-channel (mics, instruments, etc) environment? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruisinon2 2,532 Posted April 1, 2016 I'd rather have another Variax at that price...or be 2/3 of way to a Helix. If I were playing football stadiums, and actually moving across a large stage, sure, I could probably afford it ;). Otherwise, no thanks. For the stages I'm on most of the time, being tethered is not really a hindrance...no real need for wireless at all, VDI or not. If I could lead a battery-free existence, I would...just something else to keep track of and replace. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sulkbooth 16 Posted April 3, 2016 Nah, not for me. But I don't gig as much either, and usually just use my VDI. (I haven't had a battery in my JTV for 6 months!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Charlie_Watt 432 Posted April 3, 2016 I agree that it would be a fair price but I doubt that you Line6 would sell many at that price. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
clay-man 262 Posted April 28, 2016 that price is ridiculous. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Digital_Igloo 1,107 Posted April 28, 2016 that price is ridiculous. And yet, here we are. VDI is three channels; three channels of wireless ain't cheap. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
clay-man 262 Posted April 29, 2016 And yet, here we are. VDI is three channels; three channels of wireless ain't cheap. It's not 1000 dollars. It could use some type of protocol to deal with the transmission obviously. It doesn't need to be 3 separate channels as long as there's a way to decode the stream of data. That price is beyond bloated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samsgs 6 Posted April 29, 2016 Glad your looking at it. Would love it but could not come close to pulling the plug at that price. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Digital_Igloo 1,107 Posted April 29, 2016 It's not 1000 dollars. It could use some type of protocol to deal with the transmission obviously. It doesn't need to be 3 separate channels as long as there's a way to decode the stream of data. That price is beyond bloated. Yeah, it's probably around $1000. VDI is two channels of audio (modeling and mags) and a third back channel going the opposite direction. Doesn't matter how you embed the data, if you want to use existing Variax guitars' VDI outputs and existing Line 6 modelers' VDI inputs using existing Line 6 radios, it's three channels, period (plus a forward data channel, but that is embedded into the audio stream). Your "some type of protocol" obviously precludes VDI, which is its own protocol. If you're talking about: some magic next-gen Variax along with... some magic next-gen multichannel bi-directional wireless system that works with... some magic next-gen Helix... ...we're all ears. Or if you're some genius digital radio engineer who knows something we don't, we're hiring. This thread isn't about rationalizing why we should make a wireless VDI system for $1000 (CLEARLY we shouldn't). It's about collecting data for the rest of the organization. Thanks everyone for your input. None of this comes as a surprise, but at least I now have some metrics to share. :) 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruisinon2 2,532 Posted April 29, 2016 Hurumph! ;) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phil_m 4,515 Posted April 29, 2016 Your "some type of protocol" obviously precludes VDI, which is its own protocol. If you're talking about: some magic next-gen Variax along with... some magic next-gen multichannel bi-directional wireless system that works with... some magic next-gen Helix... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HonestOpinion 922 Posted April 29, 2016 Don't know anything about the VDI protocol. It looks so much like an ethernet connector, too bad wireless can't just be done with WIFI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phil_m 4,515 Posted April 29, 2016 Don't know anything about the VDI protocol. It looks so much like an ethernet connector, too bad wireless can't just be done with WIFI. Beyond my expertise, but I believe the reason wifi isn't a viable option is that wifi is a packet-based protocol - that is to say that instead of sending a continuous data stream, you're sending discrete bundles of data. So you always have some sort of buffer, and with that latency that would be unacceptable for real-time playing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HonestOpinion 922 Posted April 29, 2016 Beyond my expertise, but I believe the reason wifi isn't a viable option is that wifi is a packet-based protocol - that is to say that instead of sending a continuous data stream, you're sending discrete bundles of data. So you always have some sort of buffer, and with that latency that would be unacceptable for real-time playing. Latency would have been the issue I would have assumed was the showstopper as well. If that is the issue I wonder if the ever evolving WIFI protocol will get fast enough at some point. The new WIFI "AC" standard is already a lot faster than the old "n" wireless standard. Maybe WIFI will get fast enough at some point in the hopefully near future. Anyway, way out of my depth here, I have no comprehension of the challenges with this type of connection, just spit-balling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rewolf48 321 Posted April 29, 2016 I think that the next generation of WiFi should be fine doing multi-channel real time audio - IEEE802.11ay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ay 20 to 40 Gbps (2 to 4 Gigibytes/second) with a range of 300 to 500 meters. It is likely to become a standard in 2017, so all we have to do is wait a bit and the platform onto which this can be built will appear... Then all we need is for the hardware to be small enough to embed into a plug and we will be there (I have a USB adaptor that only sticks out 5mm, so it is possible - but perhaps has to be a bit bigger for the battery to support passive instruments) 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HonestOpinion 922 Posted April 29, 2016 Don't know anything about the VDI protocol. It looks so much like an ethernet connector, too bad wireless can't just be done with WIFI. Latency would have been the issue I would have assumed was the showstopper as well. If that is the issue I wonder if the ever evolving WIFI protocol will get fast enough at some point. The new WIFI "AC" standard is already a lot faster than the old "n" wireless standard. Maybe WIFI will get fast enough at some point in the hopefully near future. Anyway, way out of my depth here, I have no comprehension of the challenges with this type of connection, just spit-balling. I think that the next generation of WiFi should be fine doing multi-channel real time audio - IEEE802.11ay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ay 20 to 40 Gbps (2 to 4 Gigibytes/second) with a range of 300 to 500 meters. It is likely to become a standard in 2017, so all we have to do is wait a bit and the platform onto which this can be built will appear... Then all we need is for the hardware to be small enough to embed into a plug and we will be there (I have a USB adaptor that only sticks out 5mm, so it is possible - but perhaps has to be a bit bigger for the battery to support passive instruments) There you go Line6, your community has provided the answer. Next-gen WIFI for wireless VDI. Royalties and one of each L6 item(for life) please! ;) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silverhead 8,807 Posted April 30, 2016 There you go Line6, your community has provided the answer. Next-gen WIFI for wireless VDI. Royalties and one of each L6 item(for life) please! ;) You're halfway there! Don't forget that VDI also powers the Variax. After you figure out the technology for wireless power transmission and give Line 6 the patent for it I'm sure Line 6 could grant you your wish. ;) :lol: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HonestOpinion 922 Posted April 30, 2016 You're halfway there! Don't forget that VDI also powers the Variax. After you figure out the technology for wireless power transmission and give Line 6 the patent for it I'm sure Line 6 could grant you your wish. ;) :lol: LOL, wireless transmission of power is also being worked on, that can be 2018's project. We're not magicians dammit ;) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gumtown 0 Posted May 9, 2016 WiFi is not part of the spectrum where you would want to use this, if you imagine a live concert with all the patrons having a WiFi enabled cellphone in their pocket, all trying to find a connection, that is a lot of R.F. interference. I just happened to chance upon this topic during a Google search on wireless tech, I am currently designing a wireless GK system (7 channel + data), and wonder what makes a VDI system work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
clay-man 262 Posted May 9, 2016 My point is that regardless of "channels" it should not affect the price because it's a stream of data. That's like saying we should pay more for our modem because we have more than 1 program open processing internet data. Unless there's a limitation where you need to add a component for each channel, it shouldn't be a problem. It should come as 1 digital stream, and be decoded into 3 channels via the processor and how the data is encrypted. Perhaps doing that type of data in real time is more expensive than I thought, as like what was stated earlier, it's not like we're using a wifi signal. Otherwise, in theory, it should be encrypted into 1 stream. If that's not possible and we need 3 expensive components for each channel, then, well, that's stupid. I know wireless is a few hundred dollars, but jesus christ, you should not be paying the same price for the guitar itself. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruisinon2 2,532 Posted May 9, 2016 If you're scampering across stadium-sized stages, I understand the need for a wireless. But if your band is tucked into the corner by the bar at Walt's Trout Hut every Friday night, then why bother? Half the point of the VDI is not being dependent on a battery to power the guitar. Why in the name of all that is decent and holy, would I fork over a thousand dollars and add yet another battery that I have to keep charged/replace? Thank you, no... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gumtown 0 Posted May 9, 2016 To put it in a simpler singular perspective, on the guitar you would need two transmitters and one receiver, and a suitable battery capacity to run those and the guitar modelling circuit. On the other end, you would require two receivers and one transmitter, so the cost would be roughly 3 times that of a regular wireless guitar system. Then to make it cater for all, a cheepo short range 2 hour charge system won't do, it would need to be acceptable at the (semi) pro end too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
clay-man 262 Posted May 10, 2016 To put it in a simpler singular perspective, on the guitar you would need two transmitters and one receiver, and a suitable battery capacity to run those and the guitar modelling circuit. On the other end, you would require two receivers and one transmitter, so the cost would be roughly 3 times that of a regular wireless guitar system. Then to make it cater for all, a cheepo short range 2 hour charge system won't do, it would need to be acceptable at the (semi) pro end too. I'm arguing that you need 1 transmitter and 1 receiver because you can simply mix the digital data into 1 stream and decrypt it via processing. All you need to do is program a wireless protocol that would process the channels into a data stream back and forth. A programmer does need to get paid, but there's a reason why modeling products are usually SOOOO much cheaper unless all the equipment is seriously high end. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jandrio 459 Posted May 19, 2016 ..I'm arguing that you need 1 transmitter and 1 receiver because you can simply mix the digital data into 1 stream and decrypt it via processing... T R U E ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blessed1 2 Posted May 31, 2016 I'm very interested in the wireless VDI. The only reason I bought the HD500X and the JTV69 was to be able to store and change guitars with each patch and was disappointed after purchasing to find this feature wasn't available when playing wireless which is how I play. $1000.00 is a little steep considering the money already invested but if you lower the price I'd be very interested. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruisinon2 2,532 Posted June 1, 2016 $1000.00 is a little steep considering the money already invested but if you lower the price I'd be very interested. Don't hold your breath...I seriously doubt this one's even getting off the drawing board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blessed1 2 Posted June 1, 2016 You might be right. I maybe wrong, but it seems like L6 focuses primarily on musician who are recording, that's cool, but some of us are performers, doing choreography and leaving the stages, this is where a wireless is a necessity, couple that with the ability to change guitars with each patches, I'd stop carrying 4 or 5 guitars to each performance, I'd just buy 2 Variax ( 1 as a backup ) and call it a wrap, that's perfect for the touring guitarist. That's freedom, not being locked down to one spot on the stage because you can't leave your pedal! LOL. I can't let the singer get all the girls because he has a wireless mic and can go in the audience and I can't. This is 2016 LOL... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites