FRFR fail!!! read before you buy one!

[drewherring12]

The QSC K12 is a great-sounding PA speaker, but it's not an FRFR speaker. Everyone please stop bastardizing that term.

 

 

Too late, buddy. A box of tissues may not be "Kleenex" brand but if I say "pass me a Kleenex" you know what I'm saying. FRFR is synonymous with PA speaker whether you like it or not. Might as well not even bother. You'll probably end up creating even more confusion even if what you say is correct. 

[spikey]

Done Upvoted "Wall of Sound" add on!

[spikey]

Too late, buddy. A box of tissues may not be "Kleenex" brand but if I say "pass me a Kleenex" you know what I'm saying. FRFR is synonymous with PA speaker whether you like it or not. Might as well not even bother. You'll probably end up creating even more confusion even if what you say is correct. 

 

Yes like cars, there are cars and then there are hotrods. Both are cars... One just goes faster  ;)

[hideout]

Done Upvoted "Wall of Sound" add on!

 

 

Thanks, Spikey!

[hideout]

Too late, buddy. A box of tissues may not be "Kleenex" brand but if I say "pass me a Kleenex" you know what I'm saying. FRFR is synonymous with PA speaker whether you like it or not. Might as well not even bother. You'll probably end up creating even more confusion even if what you say is correct. 

 

Besides... Truly "Flat Response" sounds pretty boring.

[jbuhajla]

Besides... Truly "Flat Response" sounds pretty boring.

It's just a canvas to which you paint your picture...

 

"Most" PA speakers are pretty flat (none can be perfectly flat), and also full range (60-18000Hz)

[Digital_Igloo]

Too late, buddy. A box of tissues may not be "Kleenex" brand but if I say "pass me a Kleenex" you know what I'm saying. FRFR is synonymous with PA speaker whether you like it or not. Might as well not even bother. You'll probably end up creating even more confusion even if what you say is correct. 

No, you're probably right.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to take my Yugo race car home to listen to the death metal band Jethro Tull on my $40 Radio Shack mastering studio monitors. :D

[gunpointmetal]

The difference between guitar speakers and full-range speakers. . . 

Do you want ALL of the colors the paint with and the option to choose what suits, or do you want to always be stuck to a limited range. If everything comes out of V30 12" guitar speaker, you've only got a few colors to work with on the output no matter what you're putting into it. 

[Spacetoner]

I'm trying to remember...as it was when I first got my Helix. I tried the Helix thru my QSC K10 and it was alright. But it wasn't what I wanted. However, my main use for the Helix is for effects and Variax control. For me, the amps and cabs are secondary. I was using amps and cabs when running into the K10, of course.

 

If I recall correctly, I then ran the Helix into my Fender DRRI, and things were infinitely better. I gigged with that rig for quite some time. I didn't want to keep lugging around the DRRI, tho. About 50 lbs in its case, plus I wanted to get away from the tube world...the maintenance/fragility and weight aspects of that world, anyway. I have been all about streamlining my rig. Cos at 3AM, the less stuff you have to unload, the better.

 

Ultimately, I wound up running my Helix thru a Quilter MicroPro Mach 2. Oh my stars. Sounds amazing and weighs 18lbs or so. 8" speaker. How can this be?  :o

 

I'm sure running direct for recording and such will be fine. Haven't tried that. All my tracks get reamped anyway. For live, and for me, tho, it's the Helix and the Quilter. Fantastic.

 

Cheers!

[lungho]

Yes like cars, there are cars and then there are hotrods. Both are cars... One just goes faster  ;)

 

Or like, all hotrods are cars but not all cars are hotrods  :D

 

....and I swore to myself that I'd never post to this thread....

[FarleyUK]

Hang on, who says the K10 isn't frfr?

 

Would that help explain why, when I tested my new Alto TS210 today, it sounded a lot better to me than the K10?

[jbuhajla]

All PA speakers are "FRFR" except that the frequency response curve won't be the same between speakers. It just so happens that the Altos sound better to your ears than the QSCs right out of the box with your presets. 

[gunpointmetal]

All PA speakers are "FRFR" except that the frequency response curve won't be the same between speakers. It just so happens that the Altos sound better to your ears than the QSCs right out of the box with your presets. 

Actually, lots of PA speakers only cover half the the "FRFR" as they are technically "Full Range" , but most are pretty far from "Flat Response". They may be flat for the drivers installed, but thats about it.

[jbuhajla]

Just some comparison info for those in the market...

 

Also TS210 freq response

https://www.altoproaudio.com/downloads/Alto-Professional-TS210-Spec-Sheet.pdf

 

JBL EON 610

https://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/EON610_SpecSheet_4%2028%2015.pdf

 

Yamaha DXR

http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=en&site=countrysite-master.prod.wsys.yamaha.com&asset_id=57148

 

 

I can't find any published curves on the QSC K10

 

 

Line 6 L2T

http://line6.com/data/6/0a06434d16dcc51080ca2e605f/application/pdf/Line6%20L2t%20Specifications%20-%20English%20(%20Rev%20A%20).pdf

 

 

Atomic Amps FRFR

http://atomicamps.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Atomic-CLR-Manual.pdf

 

 

 

I can't find many curves from many "true FRFR" cabinets. 

[DunedinDragon]

Just some comparison info for those in the market...

 

Also TS210 freq response

https://www.altoproaudio.com/downloads/Alto-Professional-TS210-Spec-Sheet.pdf

 

JBL EON 610

https://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/EON610_SpecSheet_4%2028%2015.pdf

 

Yamaha DXR

http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=en&site=countrysite-master.prod.wsys.yamaha.com&asset_id=57148

 

 

I can't find any published curves on the QSC K10

 

 

Line 6 L2T

http://line6.com/data/6/0a06434d16dcc51080ca2e605f/application/pdf/Line6%20L2t%20Specifications%20-%20English%20(%20Rev%20A%20).pdf

 

 

Atomic Amps FRFR

http://atomicamps.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Atomic-CLR-Manual.pdf

 

 

 

I can't find many curves from many "true FRFR" cabinets. 

 

Excellent work tracking all of these down.  Very interesting comparisons, although mostly pretty similar.  Interesting, however, the Atomic Amps has an on to off axis chart, but that makes sense given it's a more traditional cabinet.

[robbieb61]

Just reading about the Mission Gemini 2 on Sweetwater's site.

That setup actually has a setting which gets rid of the FRFR and uses the traditional guitar frequencies to make the modeler sound better! lol

Here's a quote: "But we found that the added highs can run a bit harsh when you're going after more organic guitar tones. That's why we love the Gemini 2's EmPower EQ control, which allows you to blend between a flat EQ curve or a more typical guitar cab's present mids and rolled off highs."

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GM2BT1?adpos=1o1&creative=55281441601&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&product_id=GM2BT1&gclid=Cj0KEQjwk-jGBRCbxoPLld_bp-IBEiQAgJaftXievoEyOmaA3--2x671qpsixNhBChdjMLu0ZMAsOf0aAvu98P8HAQ

So the newest generation of FRFR cab is now set up so it can be used....NOT FRFR.  
You gotta admit...that's kinda funny. :)

[PeterHamm]

It is not about what you hear.

It's about what your audience does.

If you are only playing by yourself in your bedroom and you are the only audience, then imho, a guitar speaker is always going to sound the best, at whatever ungodly volume your family allows you to play at. Of course, I think you should get out of the ****ing bedroom and get in a band, but that's another discussion.

 

If you are playing for an audience where they are going to hear you in the PA, then an FRFR (or rough equivalent, or perhaps a wedge that actually sounds the most like your PA) will let you craft tones with regard to how they will sound best to your audience. Musicians who love their audiences in this manner are the ones who eventually get paid.

 

For me, I run more than just electric guitar through my helix, so I have to have full-range reasonably flat response.

 

Different courses...

 

...but, for anyone who says that you must have the amp in the room... get an amp and get a room and have fun. But that thinking will often lead to a poor stage sound and that's why you don't get paid and what rhymes with paid. (that was a joke...)

[robbieb61]

You're right Peter...you don't get paid, you don't get laid! lol  :)

[PeterHamm]

You're right Peter...you don't get paid, you don't get laid! lol   :)

 

Well, it was a joke, from a guy who has been happily married for over 30 years... but... yeah...

[robbieb61]

Peter your wife must look at this site every once in a while....you were awfully quick to qualify your statement! lol

[PeterHamm]

Peter your wife must look at this site every once in a while....you were awfully quick to qualify your statement! lol

 

She probably doesn't, but she does know that I ADORE her, and she totally gets my weird brand of humor anyway.

[jbuhajla]

 

So the newest generation of FRFR cab is now set up so it can be used....NOT FRFR.  

You gotta admit...that's kinda funny. :)

I guess that's why they cost so much. An FRFR with FRFR bypass could be potentially twice the price. 

[bradlake]

You're right Peter...you don't get paid, you don't get laid! lol  :)

I'm surprised that this didn't come out...."you don't get lollipop".....

[brue58ski]

...but, for anyone who says that you must have the amp in the room... get an amp and get a room and have fun. But that thinking will often lead to a poor stage sound and that's why you don't get paid and what rhymes with paid. (that was a joke...)

 

Shade? Weighed? Filleted? Swayed? Made? Prograde? Played? Sprayed? Flambeed? I don't get it... ;)

[robbieb61]

She probably doesn't, but she does know that I ADORE her, and she totally gets my weird brand of humor anyway.

You are a wise man Peter....

 

p.s.: see you at the strip club later, bring extra cash for the VIP room girls.  lol

[PeterHamm]

You are a wise man Peter....

 

p.s.: see you at the strip club later, bring extra cash for the VIP room girls.  lol

 

 

HA! Never been in one. Never will be.

[robbieb61]

HA! Never been in one. Never will be.

:)

 

Just kidding with ya. And of course "happy wife, happy life"  :)

[cruisinon2]

"happy wife...

They have those? ;)

[cruisinon2]

Just reading about the Mission Gemini 2 on Sweetwater's site.

 

That setup actually has a setting which gets rid of the FRFR and uses the traditional guitar frequencies to make the modeler sound better! lol

 

Here's a quote: "But we found that the added highs can run a bit harsh when you're going after more organic guitar tones. That's why we love the Gemini 2's EmPower EQ control, which allows you to blend between a flat EQ curve or a more typical guitar cab's present mids and rolled off highs."

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GM2BT1?adpos=1o1&creative=55281441601&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&product_id=GM2BT1&gclid=Cj0KEQjwk-jGBRCbxoPLld_bp-IBEiQAgJaftXievoEyOmaA3--2x671qpsixNhBChdjMLu0ZMAsOf0aAvu98P8HAQ

 

So the newest generation of FRFR cab is now set up so it can be used....NOT FRFR.

You gotta admit...that's kinda funny. :)

It's ridiculous, is what it is.

 

"We're charging you top dollar for this state-of-the-art FRFR guitar speaker solution...roughly 2-3x the amount of money you'd spend on a nice guitar cabinet, and included this handy "un-FRFR" button for those of you who can't be bothered to figure out how to use a modeler properly. Thanks for the money!"

 

I shoulda gone into advertising...;)

[robbieb61]

I wonder what the guys at Line 6 use to listen and tweak out the models they work on?

What I mean is...let's say they model an old Marshall amp using whatever it is the method is to capture the amp sound and create the model. Then they go to play back the model they just worked on to see if it really sounds just like the amp they modeled (which of course would be an "amp in the room" that everyone keeps saying is NOT what the Helix is supposed to sound like).

What are they using to compare the real amp with the model to make sure it sounds the same?

If we had the answer to that question...then we could ALL get that same setup to use for our Helices and the debate would be over. :)

[Ka5par]

shortly after purchasing my helix i purchased a QSC K12 as it's always been my understanding that modelers sound best through these kinds of speakers.  one day for sh!ts and grins i decided to see how my Helix sounded through the front of my Rivera Venus Deux, which is Rivera's "pedal" platform amplifier.  i called up some of my favorite patches, turned off any IR's and/or cab sims and plugged it in to the Rivera.  wow.  just, wow.  sounded absolutely incredible.  even through the Rivera's single 12, there was more "oomph" and resonance than what i'd experienced w/the cab simulations through the QSC.  to be fair, the Rivera is a hell of an amp and its enclosure is a bit larger than the average 1X12 combo, but still...  after about 15 minutes i plugged back in to the QSC which left me even more floored as to how much better the Helix sounded through the Rivera.  who knew?  i suppose YMMV as they say, but for me it's a no-brainer.  the QSC is now on CL.  i would encourage any one who has a good tube amp with a nice sounding clean channel to try what i did before plopping down a good chunk of change on a FRFR.  you may be very pleasantly surprised...or not, but it's worth a try before you buy.

 

How does it compare if you record it? That's a more apt comparison, I think. But ofcourse it's OK to have a better sound while playing without an audience.

[jwoertz]

I'm getting the best sound by using the Helix's amps into the effects return of my tube amp. If I can figure out how to get that same sound with a powered PA speaker or Mission Engineering Gemini 1, I'd be thrilled. Seems so complicated though.

[ljholland]

I'm trying to remember...as it was when I first got my Helix. I tried the Helix thru my QSC K10 and it was alright. But it wasn't what I wanted. However, my main use for the Helix is for effects and Variax control. For me, the amps and cabs are secondary. I was using amps and cabs when running into the K10, of course.

 

If I recall correctly, I then ran the Helix into my Fender DRRI, and things were infinitely better. I gigged with that rig for quite some time. I didn't want to keep lugging around the DRRI, tho. About 50 lbs in its case, plus I wanted to get away from the tube world...the maintenance/fragility and weight aspects of that world, anyway. I have been all about streamlining my rig. Cos at 3AM, the less stuff you have to unload, the better.

 

Ultimately, I wound up running my Helix thru a Quilter MicroPro Mach 2. Oh my stars. Sounds amazing and weighs 18lbs or so. 8" speaker. How can this be?  :o

 

I'm sure running direct for recording and such will be fine. Haven't tried that. All my tracks get reamped anyway. For live, and for me, tho, it's the Helix and the Quilter. Fantastic.

 

Cheers!

 

Hi Spacetoner,

My helix is inbound and I have a Quilter MP M2.  Did you end up running into the main Quilter input, the 2nd PA channel or into the effects return?

 

Thanks!

[Spacetoner]

Hi there!

 

Gratz on the new Helix! :)

 

At present, I run into the Mic/Lin channel. I was running some amps at the start of some chains but, if I recall correctly, wound up taking them out (tho I still use some for OD and such). Need to have a look at that, as I've been lazy/busy for the last couple of weeks. I should maybe try the top channel again, with all the lovely knobs, etc. I've just not felt the need, as that bottom channel has been easy to use, and has sounded great to me.

 

Once Native comes out, I'll probably try some more things.

 

I hope that made sense! :unsure:

Cheers...

-S

[brue58ski]

Here you go.

https://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Variable-Mic-Axis-and-Position-options/872296-23508

Voted for!

[HonestOpinion]

I have the same concerns that robbie61 has been expressing about the impact I am having on high frequencies I want to retain being cut along with the nasty ones. When you have a good tube amp the preamp and your cab are making dramatic cuts inherent in their design. The proper EQ is essentially baked into the physical limitations of the amp. You don't have to dial down your high end or engage an EQ pedal with everything cut above 4-5k. This starts with the fact that most guitar speakers frequency response starts dropping off at 70hz on the low end and 5k on the high end. Judging by the sound, I would not be surprised if the frequency response on many guitar amps starts attenuating even earlier than that on both the high and low end.

Partly due to the fact that there is no adjustable "slope" parameter in the Helix's high and low cuts it would seem that you really need to use a parametric EQ to be more surgical in the way you do your cuts. Maybe it is purely psychological but when I set a high or low cut, particularly a high cut to something like 5k I can't help but thinking "did I just lop off a good bit of my high/low end just to get rid of a narrow frequency range that give me a boomy or shrill sound?". Perhaps the cuts which look quite severe when made on the Helix are doing the same thing that a tube amp's construction is doing but without an oscilloscope to compare my tube amps's output to my Helix it feels to some extent that when I use a high/low cut I am 'gating' the high/low end rather than subtly rolling it off. This may be exactly what my tube amp is doing without the need for additional EQ but some confirmation as to that fact would be reassuring.

This all brings me back to wondering if not only do we need a slope control for high and low cuts but also if we need high and low cuts that take a more complex approach than perhaps they do now in most modelers. A new version of the high and low cuts that not only takes frequency range into account but also frequency response such that the low and high end can be cut without just lopping it off or too severely attenuating the frequency range on both ends. I would think that cabs and IRs would already be designed to do this but on many occasions this does not seem to be what is ultimately rendered in an FRFR. This would be a more complex algorithm that would for example mimic the way a Celestion speaker still reproduces a 9k signal but does it in a manner where, due to the frequency response of the speaker it is attenuated, but not cut. Maybe that sort of logic is already built into the high and low cuts, I don't know, but right now I do have the same concern other users have expressed about cutting too much from my signal just to get rid of offending frequencies when I use high/low cuts. A visual representation of what the low and high cuts in both the cab and the EQ blocks are doing, like the graphing on the global EQ or even an RTA, might be helpful.

Maybe ultimately modeling technology will require a modeler and a "smart" FRFR that are designed to talk to each other such that frequency response information can be passed from the modeler to an FRFR speaker in a more granular way so that the speaker knows which frequencies to attenuate or even accentuate and how much, based on the anticipated interaction of the cab/mic that has been modeled and the innate speaker characteristics of that specific FRFR . Currently, sometimes it sometimes seems like the signal being passed to the FRFR is getting too similar a response across the entire frequency range, not tapered or attenuated in the right spots. A kind of perversion of the "Full Range, Flat Response" mantra that gives every frequency roughly the same weighting and volume even though this is not ideal for a good guitar tone.

I am still able to get great realistic amp sounds out of my Helix, however a little less EQ tweaking required when going through an FRFR would be welcome as well as a bit more insight or guidance on the best practice for getting closer to a tube amp's intentionally 'limited' sound using the Helix's EQ.

[hideout]

Voted for!

 

Thank, man.

[jbuhajla]

I would think that during the process of producing speaker IR files, the speaker frequency responses would be duplicated and thus react with the amp models as such. I really don't know much about making IRs, so I could be off base. 

[spikey]

They have those? ;)

 

Yes, for those that don't ask that question...   :P

[rzumwalt]

They have those? ;)

Just saw this. Almost did a spit take.