The Mother of all Headphone Complaint Answers

[FlyingsCool]

So, I've been whining for quite a while about how my Shure SRH840 44ohm headphones sound like poop with when connected directly to Helix.  As a matter of fact, they were so bad I hadn't tried them in a long time and they actually sound better now than I remember them.... Not sure if that's a function of the upgrades since I last tried to use them.  But stuff like fuzz pedals still blow them out, make the tone seem to actually have dropouts.  I did pick up a pair of Beyerdynamics HD770 Pro 250 ohm cans.  While they seem, boxier maybe, certainly less detailed in the mids than the 840's, they do react better when connected directly to the Helix and are sort of usable for tone shaping kind of.

 

Anyway, I was perusing THE THREAD for impedance and came across this... perhaps I had missed it in the past, or it didn't sink in, but... be that as it may, Digital Igloo and Line 6 addressed this concept a long, long time ago... So here you go for all people wondering about using headphones with Helix... a quote from the incomparable Digital Igloo

 

 

Bass in Zurich said: ↑

Also interesting is that my flat response Audio Technica headphones

(these)

sound really, really, bad. The budget Sony

(these)

headphones sound a whole heap better.

Those ATs are 38 Ω? That could explain it. Low impedance headphones are designed to provide ample volume when listening to devices with relatively wimpy headphone amps, like mobile phones and iPods. Another user elsewhere expressed concern with his Beyer DT990s (which come in three variants—32 Ω, 250 Ω, and 600 Ω) and I'm willing to bet his are 32 Ω.

I'm actually surprised your Sonys sound any better, as they're even lower, at 24 Ω.

Helix's headphone amp is LOUD; it's designed to drive high-impedance studio headphones to stage volumes. Low impedance headphones distort way faster, fatigue your ears, and at a high enough volume, can damage your hearing. With Helix you could conceivably split the headphone output to two pairs of 200-300 Ω cans/IEMs and drive both over the sound of a drummer (and adjust respective levels via MIDI CC control of path output blocks). My band does this now.

Personally, I use Sennheiser HD600s (300 Ω), and before those, the HD580s (same). Also have a bunch of Sony 7506s around, but they're 63 Ω and harsh-sounding already, even with an iPod. I also keep a pair of Sennheiser HD280 Pros (64 Ω) at work and they're pretty boxy sounding, but if I can get a mix to sound good on them, it'll sound good anywhere. I treat them like wearable Yamaha NS10s, if those NS10s were powered by an Alesis RA100 instead of a Bryston. Wouldn't want to construct tones with them.

[rd2rk]

https://smile.amazon.com/Sennheiser-Open-Back-Professional-Headphone/dp/B00004SY4H/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1492791117&sr=1-1&keywords=sennheiser+hd600

 

So, to get the headphone out from the Helix to sound good requires $400 headphones?

 

I A/B'd my Sony MDR-V6 phones, direct from the Helix vs Helix through my Focusrite 18i20 headphone out. They sounded virtually the same. Awful.

 

Methinks there's more to this than meets the ear!

[gunpointmetal]

There are three reasons Helix wouldn't sound good in headphones.

1 - the headphones suck (and no you don't need $400 headphones, my $50 AKG's work just fine)

2 - there is something physically wrong with the device

3 - you're doing it wrong

[cruisinon2]

There are three reasons Helix wouldn't sound good in headphones.

1 - the headphones suck (and no you don't need $400 headphones, my $50 AKG's work just fine)

2 - there is something physically wrong with the device

3 - you're doing it wrong

Amen. Assuming that the Helix is not malfunctioning, ALL headphones are gonna sound different than monitoring methods that aren't sitting right on top of your head. And no two pair of cans will sound exactly the same either. It's EQ, like everything else.

[rd2rk]

I have 3 sets of phones:

 

Sony MDR-V6 - I doubt if anyone would say that these suck. Yet, they sound the worst of the three with Helix. Small over ear design. Thin and unpleasant.

 

AKG K-55 - purchased at GC for $20 back in the Pleistocene era. Ultra light, plasticky, very large over ear design. Nicer sounding than the Sony, but sound like you're playing in a giant, empty auditorium.

 

Sennheiser RS-185 digital wireless - Smaller (between the Sony and AKG) over ear design. All around best sounding of the bunch. Also most expensive.

 

Allowing, of course, for the subjectivity factor, and considering the A/B tests I did, I say:

 

1) There's nothing wrong with the Helix headphone out.

2) Just like through the air FRFR (my Alto TS210 sounds totally different than my Rokit6 monitors), find a pair of headphones you like and go with those.

[Jos_K]

I've used my Shure SRH-940 for several months now. Excellent headphones for guitars. So far any sound created solely through these headphones translates perfectly to my L2's. The mid detail sounds as if these headphones were made for monitoring guitars. I also have/tried AKG K701, K271, K240, Beyerdynamic HD770 but they didn't come close to the Shures for me.

[njglover]

So, I've been whining for quite a while about how my Shure SRH840 44ohm headphones sound like poop with when connected directly to Helix.  As a matter of fact, they were so bad I hadn't tried them in a long time and they actually sound better now than I remember them.... Not sure if that's a function of the upgrades since I last tried to use them.  But stuff like fuzz pedals still blow them out, make the tone seem to actually have dropouts.  I did pick up a pair of Beyerdynamics HD770 Pro 250 ohm cans.  While they seem, boxier maybe, certainly less detailed in the mids than the 840's, they do react better when connected directly to the Helix and are sort of usable for tone shaping kind of.

 

Anyway, I was perusing THE THREAD for impedance and came across this... perhaps I had missed it in the past, or it didn't sink in, but... be that as it may, Digital Igloo and Line 6 addressed this concept a long, long time ago... So here you go for all people wondering about using headphones with Helix... a quote from the incomparable Digital Igloo

 

The DT770s are closed, so if you want a less boxy sound, you might look at open headphones like the DT880s. Not quite as much bass from those, though, so not perfect for all cases.

[cruisinon2]

It's all perception and personal preference, like anything else. Plus, headphones are a wearable item, and everybody's got a different sized/shaped head. If a given set doesn't fit very well, or is otherwise uncomfortable, that'll color your opinion of them, too.

 

I've had headphones that were excellent, and I've tried ones that I thought were absolute crap, regardless of price. And there is exactly ONE way to find out. Buy and try...

[FlyingsCool]

There are three reasons Helix wouldn't sound good in headphones.

1 - the headphones suck (and no you don't need $400 headphones, my $50 AKG's work just fine)

2 - there is something physically wrong with the device

3 - you're doing it wrong

 

As I noted, the SHR-840's are 44 ohm headphones.  At any reasonable volume (maybe I like them too loud), any tone with a wide dynamic range (like an Arbiter fuzz tone) totally clip, and even have dropouts.  Given the Beyerdynamics perform better, I'm gonna go with what DI said; the "low impedance headphones will likely clip and distort" reason.  They work fine through my computer and when I listen to the Helix with my headphones when I'm using my Focusrite 6i6 as the recording interface.  They are good headphones, and more detailed than the Beyerdynamics, they just can't handle the wide dynamic range signals the Helix headphone amp is capable of.

 

Shure SHR-840's don't suck.  I'm not gonna say they are awesome, but they don't suck.

 

Did anyone actually read what DI said?

 

I have yet to connect the headphone jack to my interface and record through it.  Guess I should do that just for that final test.

[TheDaveDaveDave]

 

Did anyone actually read what DI said?

 

This!

 

BLUF - Folks, read the *specs* of your cans, and try some high-impedance headphones.  Comparing 3 oranges doesn't yield apples. 

[rd2rk]

Oranges defined:

 

AKG K-55

32 ohm

96db sensitivity

16hz-20khz frequency range

 

Sony MDR-V6

63 ohm
106db sensitivity
5hz-30khz frequency range

 

Sennheiser RS185

Digital/wireless - has it's own amp/transmitter

106db sensitivity
17hz-22khz frequency range

 

The Sony, being higher impedance, takes more power to drive, has high sensitivity and wider frequency range. You'd think they'd be the best sounding. To me, they're irritating.

 

The AKG is cheap and has the worst specs. They actually sound pretty good, but echoey.

 

I like the RS185 best, AND they're wireless (digital, so latency is not an issue).

 

All 3 oranges will bust your eardrums before they distort.

 

Bottom Line - 

 

2) Just like through the air FRFR (my Alto TS210 sounds totally different than my Rokit6 monitors), find a pair of headphones you like and go with those.

 

AND - 

 

what cruisinon2 said.

 

ALSO

 

IF you can afford the 300-600 ohm variety of high impedance cans

AND you like the way they sound

THEN they're worth the MUCH higher price tag

ELSE oranges might be just fine

 

That said, my favorite (the RS185) was $400. Sometimes the expensive oranges just taste better B) !

[CraigGT]

I have a pair of 24 Ohm Sennheiser HD201's and they sound rubbish with my Helix so I dusted off my 30 year old HD420 SL's which are 600 Ohm and they sound wonderful.

 

So much for progress  :D

 

Craig 

[TheDaveDaveDave]

 

IF you can afford the 300-600 ohm variety of high impedance cans

AND you like the way they sound

THEN they're worth the MUCH higher price tag

ELSE oranges might be just fine

 

That said, my favorite (the RS185) was $400. Sometimes the expensive oranges just taste better B) !

THIS!

 

BTW - sorry, I actually misread your original post, and when I had googled up your phone's specs, somehow I came across an impedance of 68Ohms for the Senny's.  I'd say you're comparing two oranges to apples - the apple being the higher impedance TR-185 transmitter.  

 

Aside from being wrong about 3 oranges earlier, I hope I didn't sound too grumpy, at least not towards towards you good sir!   :)

[rd2rk]

DaveDaveDave - 

 

It's all good!

This is a great discussion. I never really looked into the difference between High and Low Impedance phones, just assumed it was another of those audio elitist things. I only ran across the Sennheisers when all of the cheaper wireless units either had too much latency or sounded like crap.

[mikisb]

hmm - as there are reported good and bad sounding headphones (with the Helix headphones out) with low and high impedance - so - is'nt this impedance discussions senseless?

[rd2rk]

mikisb - 

 

OP was questioning the properties of the Helix headphone out. This has come up more than once, so, no, the discussion isn't pointless. It's actually been rather informative. Also, I, and others, have stressed your point - High or Low Impedance, all our ears are different. The only way to find THE headphones for YOU is to BUY 'em and TRY 'em!

[TheDaveDaveDave]

hmm - as there are reported good and bad sounding headphones (with the Helix headphones out) with low and high impedance - so - is'nt this impedance discussions senseless?

Well, there's this: http://line6.com/support/page/kb/_/effects-controllers/helix/helix-support-faq-r756 :)

[mikisb]

sorry, perhaps i did'nt understand the discussion right.

I agree that the discussion about the headphone sound is important and a reason why i asked for a headphone out dedicatet global EQ in ideascale long time before.

But it seemed to me that the impedance could be seen as the most important influence. As there are pros and cons for both low and high impedance in this  thread, so this could indicate that the impedance is just not such an important factor.  ;)

[bsd512]

I somehow missed DI's preference for headphones, though I've tried a number of others from lower-budget flat studio phones to even (not cheap) but consumer Bose QC 15's. Of all the ones I tried, I liked the Bose QC 15's, I thought those sounded the best, very little or no "fizz" that people complain about, and they just sound GOOD.

 

Other's I've tried have been Sony MDR-7506, Sony MDRV6 (I think that's Sony's replacement for the MDR-7506 - or vice versa), the higher end Sony MDR7520. The MDR7520 was the best but still lacking and I always went back to the Bose QC15's as they just sounded warmer and way more pleasing. And the other phones sounded dry and while not horrible, very fizzy and not comfortable to listen to for any length of time.

 

Well, based on the above quoted posted from DI, I took a chance and splurged on a set of DI's Sennheiser HD 600's. The arrived today. I don't know if it's that the Sennheisers are open back vs all the others being closed, or some technological witchcraft in the Sennheisers but these are awesome headphones. I've been using them all day and they way more accurately represent the highs and lows than my prior go-to Bose's, and are extremely comfortable and pleasing to listen to.

 

What I always found with the Bose was that I'd dial in my sound using those, get the high's just right, record, then play in my good car stereo, and the result would be much darker than what the headphones represented. So to get a good sound, I'd have to EQ to the point where the Bose's were too bright and even shrill, and then that would usually translate pretty well to my car stereo.

 

When I went back to my presets using the Sennheisers instead, sure enough, they sounded dark - just like in my (very nice) car stereo, while through the Bose the sound was as perfect as I could get when playing through those, but not accurate in my car.

 

While I did reset my EQ based on the Sennheisers and fixed up the "dark" problem, I haven't had a chance to test in my car, but the result sounds good through my monitors and I'm optimistic.

 

Sorry for rambling on, but wanted to convey my experience with some different headphones and those Sennheiser HD 600's are extremely comfortable, sound very accurate, and not fizzy, based on my prior experience of using the above mentioned headphones. Based on what they did for me, I consider them well worth the price and will NOT be sending them back.

[rzumwalt]

Does anyone know whether there is any type of in-line device that can be plugged in between the Helix and headphones that would add impedance, and, if so, whether this might make a pair of low impedance headphones work better with Helix?

[ThePup]

Senhiezer HD650 works for me.

[RRMark]

Like my Sennheiser HD650 too

[bsd512]

Does anyone know whether there is any type of in-line device that can be plugged in between the Helix and headphones that would add impedance, and, if so, whether this might make a pair of low impedance headphones work better with Helix?

Not sure about a separate device, but the old Bose QC15's I had a switch on the plug that goes into the headphone ear can to convert it from low impedance to high impedance. Not sure what that impedance actually is - just says "LO" on one side and "HI" on the other. I know it's not 300, though, because I had to turn up the volume knob a spec for the Sennheiser HD 600's, but not much - maybe it's 200 or 250? Maybe that's one of the reasons it sounded decent (if not frequency accurate) with the Helix. I'd use the "LO" setting on iPhone, etc. "HI" setting on Helix.

[FlyingsCool]

I somehow missed DI's preference for headphones, though I've tried a number of others from lower-budget flat studio phones to even (not cheap) but consumer Bose QC 15's. Of all the ones I tried, I liked the Bose QC 15's, I thought those sounded the best, very little or no "fizz" that people complain about, and they just sound GOOD.

 

Other's I've tried have been Sony MDR-7506, Sony MDRV6 (I think that's Sony's replacement for the MDR-7506 - or vice versa), the higher end Sony MDR7520. The MDR7520 was the best but still lacking and I always went back to the Bose QC15's as they just sounded warmer and way more pleasing. And the other phones sounded dry and while not horrible, very fizzy and not comfortable to listen to for any length of time.

 

Well, based on the above quoted posted from DI, I took a chance and splurged on a set of DI's Sennheiser HD 600's. The arrived today. I don't know if it's that the Sennheisers are open back vs all the others being closed, or some technological witchcraft in the Sennheisers but these are awesome headphones. I've been using them all day and they way more accurately represent the highs and lows than my prior go-to Bose's, and are extremely comfortable and pleasing to listen to.

 

What I always found with the Bose was that I'd dial in my sound using those, get the high's just right, record, then play in my good car stereo, and the result would be much darker than what the headphones represented. So to get a good sound, I'd have to EQ to the point where the Bose's were too bright and even shrill, and then that would usually translate pretty well to my car stereo.

 

When I went back to my presets using the Sennheisers instead, sure enough, they sounded dark - just like in my (very nice) car stereo, while through the Bose the sound was as perfect as I could get when playing through those, but not accurate in my car.

 

While I did reset my EQ based on the Sennheisers and fixed up the "dark" problem, I haven't had a chance to test in my car, but the result sounds good through my monitors and I'm optimistic.

 

Sorry for rambling on, but wanted to convey my experience with some different headphones and those Sennheiser HD 600's are extremely comfortable, sound very accurate, and not fizzy, based on my prior experience of using the above mentioned headphones. Based on what they did for me, I consider them well worth the price and will NOT be sending them back.

 

I didn't think you rambled at all.  All good info.

 

I think it matters, too, what sort of presets we're talking about.  The worst ones for making my Shure's sound ripped were the Fuzz tones.  Impossible to use the headphones with fuzz effects.  Clean tones, they were fine.  As I noted, it's those presets with a really wide dynamic range that really made them impossible to use.

[bsd512]

I didn't think you rambled at all.  All good info.

 

I think it matters, too, what sort of presets we're talking about.  The worst ones for making my Shure's sound ripped were the Fuzz tones.  Impossible to use the headphones with fuzz effects.  Clean tones, they were fine.  As I noted, it's those presets with a really wide dynamic range that really made them impossible to use.

Thanks! Yeah clean tones seem more forgiving. I'm referring to high gain tones in all of the above. I know I still have a lot to learn and my tone(s) continue to elvove. I listened to something I made about a year ago and cringed. I wonder if I'll do the same thing next year at this time? :)

[jeremyn]

My Audio Technica ATH-M70x headphones have a very flat response and sound great with the Helix. They are 35 Ohms, but sound about the same being driven by an inline headphone amp as they do being driven directly from the Helix's headphone out.

 

I've also tried my Bose QC25s and they sound good, but they have the classic bass+treble boost that most people expect from their music listening phones. So the tone needs to be treated with that expectation in mind and the patches made with these don't really translate across to the FRFR monitors without having to make further EQ tweaks.

[cruisinon2]

All 3 oranges will bust your eardrums before they distort.

 

I think this is part of the issue for some. I've used a variety of low impedance cans without issue. If one's various input and output levels are set appropriately there's no clipping, and nothing should be farting out on you. However, if you're determined to crank the volume to 11, then perhaps you'll have issues with lower impedance cans starting to distort. Personally, I can do without the extra ear fatigue (and faster onset thereof) that comes with stupid volume.

[PeterHamm]

At a reasonable price, my Sennheiser HD 380s sound GREAT with Helix.

But even better, most of the time, is my Share 215 IEMs. IEMs work differently than standard headphones, and with my Shures I can actually tweak for stage use and it works. I can't do that with any conventional headphones.

[Rewolf48]

Does anyone know whether there is any type of in-line device that can be plugged in between the Helix and headphones that would add impedance, and, if so, whether this might make a pair of low impedance headphones work better with Helix?

 

Yes, and Yes. There are many - I use one of these all the time; a mini headphone amp:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Headphone-Earphone-Accessories/FiiO-Portable-Headphone-Amplifier-Upgrade/B01CSSQXJ8/ref=lp_1640593031_1_12

Contrary to what you might think they should be used for I actually use it for volume reduction - especially on Aircraft where they put announcements through the headsets at full volume which is seriously painful if you are using IEM and are on the minimum volume setting. Set the source to a high volume and then reduce it in the headphone amp.

[rzumwalt]

Yes, and Yes. There are many - I use one of these all the time; a mini headphone amp:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Headphone-Earphone-Accessories/FiiO-Portable-Headphone-Amplifier-Upgrade/B01CSSQXJ8/ref=lp_1640593031_1_12

Contrary to what you might think they should be used for I actually use it for volume reduction - especially on Aircraft where they put announcements through the headsets at full volume which is seriously painful if you are using IEM and are on the minimum volume setting. Set the source to a high volume and then reduce it in the headphone amp.

 

I was thinking of something passive, like a length of cable with a resistor embedded in it. Would this do the trick:

https://www.amazon.com/Koss-155954-VC20-Volume-Control/dp/B00001P4XH

[Digital_Igloo]

A well-known recording engineer friend and I were talking a while back and he mentioned that some older professional recording gear might get worse reviews today simply because headphone impedances have been dropping steadily. Back then, there was a much better chance that any over-the-ear headphones would be high enough impedance to sound great on gear at the time. Now it's all about blowing kids' eardrums out with their $200 Beats that are designed to push enough bass from a phone's puny headphone amp.

 

Helix is professional gear—designed for professionals—and we weren't about to dumb down our headphone amp because everyone happens to have white earbuds in some drawer in their house. Feel free to use consumer cans, but don't expect it to sound great.

 

BTW, a lower-impedance doesn't necessarily mean worse specs; it simply means the cans were designed for a different purpose. There are amazing-sounding, über-expensive low-impedance cans that sound amazing on phones but terrible on pro gear. And there are amazing-sounding, über-expensive high-impedance cans that sound amazing on pro gear but terrible on phones.

[MusicLaw]

And, do not overlook that the Type, Style and Genre of material and how it is performed, recorded, mastered, also has a significant impact on how a given pair of headphones will sound.

[Rewolf48]

I was thinking of something passive, like a length of cable with a resistor embedded in it. Would this do the trick:

https://www.amazon.com/Koss-155954-VC20-Volume-Control/dp/B00001P4XH

 

Maybe. It is probably a linked pair of variable resistors with the headphone output between the sweep and the ground.On full volume it will make no difference because nothing is going through the resistor, but on half volume it will increase the resistance (same as impedance for this purpose).We have no idea what the internal resistance is, and the impact it has varies depending on where in the range it is set.

Active devices always present high impedance to the source and are designed for lower impedance phones - they do the job properly. You spend $1K+ on a Helix and then want to save $22 on the kit to listen to it properly?

[rzumwalt]

Maybe. It is probably a linked pair of variable resistors with the headphone output between the sweep and the ground.On full volume it will make no difference because nothing is going through the resistor, but on half volume it will increase the resistance (same as impedance for this purpose).We have no idea what the internal resistance is, and the impact it has varies depending on where in the range it is set.

Active devices always present high impedance to the source and are designed for lower impedance phones - they do the job properly. You spend $1K+ on a Helix and then want to save $22 on the kit to listen to it properly?

Ha. Easy to lose perspective. For the record, I don't have a problem with the headphones I use. If I did, I would be looking for a passive solution solely for the simplicity, provided it worked. 

[taylorbeats]

+1 on the shure 215's!!  Very similar to alto's tone/color which there is minimal.  Nice find.

[Rewolf48]

I also use Shure 215's whenever I am away from my home studio

 

After that headphone amp to control levels

[TTRESHH]

Trying to figure out, what headphones I should buy for working with my Helix. Already tried HD650 and find them nice, but I want to have closed type and something more flat than my HD650 (already done custom calibration service for them, and they very close to be flat but still there is a little tonal coloring).

 

Trying to choose between:

 

1)Shure SRH1540

https://www.shure.com/americas/products/headphones/srh1540-premium-closed-back-headphones

 

2) Neumann NDH 20

https://www.neumann.com/homestudio/en/ndh-20

 

3) German Maestro 450 Pro

You can find them on this page, just scroll a little bit down:

https://www.german-maestro.de/Englisch/Products/Logic/Headphones/

 

4) Audeze LCD2

https://www.audeze.com/products/lcd-collection/lcd2-closed-back

 

Anyone experience about named headphones?

 

 

[jester700]

I've heard and like the Shures, but never owned them, and have no experience with the others mentioned, but would like to offer another closed options you may want to listen to.

 

I love my NAD HD50 headphones. After years of using Sony MDR7506 and Sennheiser HD250, I consider these a big improvement from those (Sonys are kind of boom/sizzle and Sennheisers are midrangey)

 

In response to the greater discussion, we really can't make any claims about impedance being the main factor in the sound of Helix when cans sound so different in the first place. My 32 ohm NADs sound better IMO than the other two types I own, but are lower impedance. The only way to really know is to take a model that has multiple versions, like a Beyer DT770 (available in 32, 80, and 250 ohm versions) and A/B those. Well, I guess A/B/C them...

[mikeyg00]

Bumping an old thread ... so I have qc15s, and on all my gear (axe fix, thr10, helix stomp, the volume is low and when I turn up even the slightest they distort.

 

So if others are using them it's gotta be my patch levels? Seems strange that all 3 would be low. When I play through my atomic CLR, my levels are fine. Of course the CLR is rated for 500 watts I think

[xmacvicar]

I have a pair of ATH-M40fs headphones (they are now discontinued). Do they sound bad...no ? But I have really no other point of reference. 

 

The specs of these are: 

 

Type	Closed-back dynamic
Driver Diameter	40 mm
Magnet	Neodymium
Voice Coil	Copper-clad aluminum wire
Frequency Response	5 - 28,000 Hz
Maximum Input Power	1,600 mW at 1 kHz
Sensitivity	100 dB
Impedance	60 ohms
Weight	8.8 oz (250 g) without cable
Cable	11' (3.4 m) (OFC litz wire, left-side exit)
Connector	1/4" (6.3 mm) phone plug

 

I wouldn't mind upgrading my headphones to something else if I got better sound quality when using alongside my Helix. I do have a pair of shure 215's that I use for my drum kit - I never put those in the helix yet; their set for 17 Ω