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Helix LT sucks. Badly.

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10 minutes ago, niarolf said:

wth is up with people like you, i came to these forums seeking for help and all i get is a bunch of trolling and ridicule, finally someone (codamedia) is actually trying to be helpful and you're telling him to stfu?

 

 

this place is worse than TGP ffs

 

I know what you mean by thin sounding and cold, but it's more of a question about your own skills at getting guitar tones and mixing, the EQ, and the IR's you use, it takes time, practice and good ears. The Helix isn't lacking mids, you can get them so high it's disgusting, in a mix, you will want to cut (some of) the mids. Also the amp modeling itself maybe isn't up to par with the Axe FX 2 and 3, that's common knowledge, but it's not that bad either and the AXE FX is way more expensive, you can get the Helix to sound REALLY good, like the real deal in a recording, for example if you compare the Helix with a VST plugin like the X50 with the same IR, the Helix will sound nicer and warmer.

 

And the graph you posted is not..real at all? I took some pictures of some of my recordings to show you what it should look like, I'm using high gain all the time too.

 

bEpT74P.png

 

xTflX03.png

 

3F1B3bz.png

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25 minutes ago, soundog said:

I hate all of you.

 

You all suck.

 

Badly.

 

Awww...that's so sweet! We hate you too! XOXO :-)

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On 3/27/2019 at 9:06 AM, niarolf said:

 

I got a Behringer B112D for live/rehearsal use, It's at home now so i can dial in patches on it.

 

About the Fletcher-Munson thing, it seems like everything is extremely scooped by default and I don't know how to get a 'natural' sounding midrange without the thing starting to sound like a pignose.

 

"lacking focus" is a good way to say it.

 

Here's a patch 

 

Fried+V30.hlx

This preset actually sounds pretty good to me. You've mentioned mids, if you aren't getting what you want from the amp's mid control, try bumping the bias up to about 5.8 or so and see if that gets you closer to what you're after.

 

I notice you pulled the sag all the way down to zero. That's going to make it sound more crisp and harsh, which you've also complained about. Maybe take that back to the default (5), or even higher to loosen it up a bit.

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1 hour ago, niarolf said:

wth is up with people like you, i came to these forums seeking for help and all i get is a bunch of trolling and ridicule, finally someone (codamedia) is actually trying to be helpful and you're telling him to stfu?

 

 

this place is worse than TGP ffs

 

I was fine with you until you snuck in that mid & lowless dribble under the guise of showing us what REAL audio was. That's auditory torture on a waterboarding level.

 

Bad form man.

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4 hours ago, niarolf said:

wth is up with people like you, i came to these forums seeking for help and all i get is a bunch of trolling and ridicule, finally someone (codamedia) is actually trying to be helpful and you're telling him to stfu?

 

 

this place is worse than TGP ffs

Really, except for all the people who were asking you about your gear and offering suggestions when you brought your issue originally that you either ignored or just kept repeating “Nah, everything is scooped”. I read the thread over on TGP where you did the same thing. The only common denominator here is you. It’s guitar gear. If it’s not working and you’re too smart and your hearing is too good to take suggestions, then it’s time to find something that does. 

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13 hours ago, niarolf said:

WTF dude, do you think i would've bought the helix if i didn't want to like it??

 

i literally spent the last 5 days tweaking the helix, people like you make the helix community look like a bunch of triggered retards.

 

A whole 5 days?  Wow...... No sleeping or going to potty? You must be constipated by now, and that can effect your mids too.

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8 hours ago, soundog said:

I hate all of you.

 

You all suck.

 

Badly.

Of course... a guy with majoras mask what would say after all ....

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14 hours ago, niarolf said:

finally someone (codamedia) is actually trying to be helpful and you're telling him to stfu?

 

Don't use me as the pawn to attack someone else! 

He was joking with me.... he wasn't telling me to stfu, he was just suggesting that I don't waste my time by being polite to you. He's not wrong!

 

14 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

Taking the high road will get you nowhere with this guy. He thrives on confrontation, as do all trolls.

 

I fully get it. I'm just having fun :) 

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3 hours ago, codamedia said:

 

I fully get it. I'm just having fun :) 

 

We should be THANKING Niarolf for keeping us entertained/distracted while we wait for 2.8!

I think I need a new hobby.

Somebody over on Talkbass posted a vid of a Euphonium band doing a Metallica cover. Wonder if Helix would properly reproduce the mids......?

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6 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

We should be THANKING Niarolf for keeping us entertained/distracted while we wait for 2.8!

 

Sadly, that's probably more true than I would care to admit.

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I'm here for the drama, not the knowledge.

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19 minutes ago, dawg2k5 said:

 

I had my Stomp for a few weeks and spent lots of time with it. Was hoping I could use it as a backup to my Axe-Fx, but nope. Don't like the amp modeling at all. I've owned pretty much every modeler made in the last 10 years at one point. The Headrush gigboard I recently played around with sounded way better....

 

 

 

Which was what I suggested a few pages back to the OP. The Gigboard is a solid device.

 

Good luck.

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On 3/29/2019 at 6:38 PM, vstrattomusic said:

 

I know what you mean by thin sounding and cold, but it's more of a question about your own skills at getting guitar tones and mixing, the EQ, and the IR's you use, it takes time, practice and good ears. The Helix isn't lacking mids, you can get them so high it's disgusting, in a mix, you will want to cut (some of) the mids. Also the amp modeling itself maybe isn't up to par with the Axe FX 2 and 3, that's common knowledge, but it's not that bad either and the AXE FX is way more expensive, you can get the Helix to sound REALLY good, like the real deal in a recording, for example if you compare the Helix with a VST plugin like the X50 with the same IR, the Helix will sound nicer and warmer.

 

And the graph you posted is not..real at all? I took some pictures of some of my recordings to show you what it should look like, I'm using high gain all the time too.

 

bEpT74P.png

 

xTflX03.png

 

3F1B3bz.png

 

 

Not that I’m disputing what you’re saying, just wondering how you came to the conclusion that the amp modelling in Helix isn’t up to par with Axe FX 2 or 3?  You mentioned that it’s common knowledge, which wouldn’t be supporting evidence, nor am I jumping to any conclusions that it plays any part in your claim.  Just curious, if it’s true, I want to know.

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28 minutes ago, litesnsirens said:

 

 

Not that I’m disputing what you’re saying, just wondering how you came to the conclusion that the amp modelling in Helix isn’t up to par with Axe FX 2 or 3?  You mentioned that it’s common knowledge, which wouldn’t be supporting evidence, nor am I jumping to any conclusions that it plays any part in your claim.  Just curious, if it’s true, I want to know.

 

It's a subjective claim... It can't be proven true or false.

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3 hours ago, litesnsirens said:

 

 

Not that I’m disputing what you’re saying, just wondering how you came to the conclusion that the amp modelling in Helix isn’t up to par with Axe FX 2 or 3?  You mentioned that it’s common knowledge, which wouldn’t be supporting evidence, nor am I jumping to any conclusions that it plays any part in your claim.  Just curious, if it’s true, I want to know.

 

There's no objective "truth" to be found here. You can't "prove" that one device's modeling algorithms are "better" or "worse" than any of it's competitors, any more than you can prove that iceberg lettuce is "better" than romaine. There's nothing to measure or quantify. All we have is subjective evaluation and opinions, which are driven entirely by personal preferences, individual needs, and whatever inherent biases we all bring to the table. In other words, you either like it or you don't... but either way, you've "proven" nothing. 

 

I'll use my Les Paul example again...I hate the damn things. I find them horribly uncomfortable to play. I sound terrible whenever I pick one up....so I stopped trying. But does that "prove" that Les Pauls are terrible instruments? Of course not... they just don't work for me. There are plenty of guys however, who can make them sing. They're not the problem...I am. It's all relative.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the closest thing there is to "truth" as far as guitar modelers are concerned is this: There are a lot good ones on the market today, both hardware versions and software based plug-ins. If you have even the slightest clue how they work, with a little effort (emphasis on effort) you should be able to achieve satisfactory results with any of them. And if you've tried them all and can't make a single one sound good, then the gear isn't the problem.... stick with "real" amps.

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Therein lies the rub. In a live setting, there are so many variables (PA, EQ, interaction between instruments in the mix, room acoustics, beer served, etc) using another's presets can present a challenge. I use some in a studio setting, which is much more controlled. In that case, some of the third-party presets have been a huge timesaver, as well as inspirational for song writing.

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To say it’s subjective is absolutely the way I view it, well to the extent that you are talking about what any given person prefers.  That said, I suppose if there was some mechanism to measure who more accurately modelled the various amps that are common between the 2 devices a person could make a truth claim about it.  To my knowledge this doesn’t; exist and even if it did, it would only be relevant if both companies modelled the exact same amp through the exact same cabs using the exact same mic’s in the exact same room etc etc etc.  

 

 

If we exclude that as a way to compare, then perhaps there is some other way, I don’t know what it would be so I’m curious how someone who is making the claim as if it’s fact not merely opinion came to that conclusion.   And I’m truly open to the answer.  If it turns out that it actually is really just opinion and that it was just a matter loose phrasing i’m cool with that as it would comport with my general understanding.

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8 minutes ago, litesnsirens said:

I’m curious how someone who is making the claim as if it’s fact not merely opinion came to that conclusion.

 Can't find the OP, but IIRC what he said was that "it is widely accepted". That, to me, implies simple opinion garnered from things he's read and heard.It carries the same factual weight as "I heard it through the grapevine".

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46 minutes ago, litesnsirens said:

I suppose if there was some mechanism to measure who more accurately modelled the various amps that are common between the 2 devices a person could make a truth claim about it. 

 

But what would you measure? And what difference would it make if you found that Product A had more or less of X, Y, or Z than Product B? Is more "better"? There's no guarantee that you'd prefer one over the other, no matter what you're trying to quantify. And that's always what it will boil down to. Do I like this thing, or not? You might love it, and I might hate it... so who's right? Nobody.

 

And you could do your experiment with both companies going through their respective modeling processes with the exact same amps, mics, in the same room, etc, etc... and you'd still never get a consensus on which one was better, for the exact same reason: Perception is both variable, and notoriously fickle. We've all had the experience of loving our sound one day, and hating it the next... even when nothing has changed but the day of the week. You'll never get a room full of guitar players to universally agree on anything...

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17 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

You'll never get a room full of guitar players to universally agree on anything...

 

That's why I gave up trying to form The Guitar Army band last year. Too many fist fights and broken chairs.

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5 hours ago, litesnsirens said:

Not that I’m disputing what you’re saying, just wondering how you came to the conclusion that the amp modelling in Helix isn’t up to par with Axe FX 2 or 3?  You mentioned that it’s common knowledge, which wouldn’t be supporting evidence, nor am I jumping to any conclusions that it plays any part in your claim.  Just curious, if it’s true, I want to know.

 

I say that because;

 

-My Helix LT is around £700 brand new, the Axe FX III is like $2250 from their website, 2800€ from a EU distributor.

-I have seen a ton of bands that I like that use the Axe FX, even when using tube amp rigs, they just have the Axe laying around for effects, I have never seen a band that I like use the Helix.

-I've heard a lot of praise about the Axe FX since forever, when the Helix was launched, I remember reading a lot of criticism about the sound, how it was fizzy, or had that "Line 6 sound", or that it wasn't in the same league as the Axe FX and Kemper.

-You can read a lot of comments saying that it's easy to get a really good sound with the Axe Fx without barely touching anything, while it takes some tweaking with the Helix. 

 

You could say that it's all subjective, but there's a reason why the Helix is $1400 or $900 and the Axe is 2800€, there's a reason why most big name artists are using the Axe and not the Helix, and I don't think it's marketing, since Line 6 is way more popular than Fractal Audio.

 

I bought the Helix LT because I couldn't afford the Axe FX III, for me, it was definetly a step up from my solid state amps and VST plugins that I used to record, when I first used it, I was impressed, but when I put it in a mix I got angry because it wasn't easy to get the tone that I wanted out of it, I had to try many things to get where I wanted to be. I kept with it because of the 0 latency, as opposed to using plugins + interface, also because I had all of the effects I'll ever need in one place instead of messing with a 1000 plugins from different brands, and because it's my best option at this time and if I put some work in, I can make it sound like I want it to. But I don't think it's the best option if you have the money.

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So in essence, Fractal is better because:

 

1) Various famous dudes have one.

2) Internet comments say so.

3) It's more expensive. 

 

Those reasons friends, are the very essence of subjectivity.

 

I rest my case. ;)

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44 minutes ago, vstrattomusic said:

 

I say that because;

 

-My Helix LT is around £700 brand new, the Axe FX III is like $2250 from their website, 2800€ from a EU distributor.

-I have seen a ton of bands that I like that use the Axe FX, even when using tube amp rigs, they just have the Axe laying around for effects, I have never seen a band that I like use the Helix.

-I've heard a lot of praise about the Axe FX since forever, when the Helix was launched, I remember reading a lot of criticism about the sound, how it was fizzy, or had that "Line 6 sound", or that it wasn't in the same league as the Axe FX and Kemper.

-You can read a lot of comments saying that it's easy to get a really good sound with the Axe Fx without barely touching anything, while it takes some tweaking with the Helix. 

 

You could say that it's all subjective, but there's a reason why the Helix is $1400 or $900 and the Axe is 2800€, there's a reason why most big name artists are using the Axe and not the Helix, and I don't think it's marketing, since Line 6 is way more popular than Fractal Audio.

 

I bought the Helix LT because I couldn't afford the Axe FX III, for me, it was definetly a step up from my solid state amps and VST plugins that I used to record, when I first used it, I was impressed, but when I put it in a mix I got angry because it wasn't easy to get the tone that I wanted out of it, I had to try many things to get where I wanted to be. I kept with it because of the 0 latency, as opposed to using plugins + interface, also because I had all of the effects I'll ever need in one place instead of messing with a 1000 plugins from different brands, and because it's my best option at this time and if I put some work in, I can make it sound like I want it to. But I don't think it's the best option if you have the money.

 

So if I may summarize, Fractal is better because: 

 

1) Various famous dudes have one.

2) Internet comments say so.

3) It's more expensive. (see #1)

 

Nothing about having tried both and genuinely preferring the Axe. You're right... in this case it's not subjective at alI. You've based your conclusion on the 3 pillars of advertising:

 

1) Endorsements from a famous face.

2) Endorsements from Joe Average.

3) Exploiting the perception that expensive stuff must be better than less expensive stuff, because otherwise no one in their right mind  would pay the extra money... millions of Monster Cables have been sold entirely under this premise. ;)

 

FWIW, I can't afford Fractal prices either...I mean, I wouldn't break me,  but I can't justify it either. 

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18 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

So if I may summarize, Fractal is better because: 

 

1) Various famous dudes have one.

2) Internet comments say so.

3) It's more expensive. (see #1)

 

Nothing about having tried both and genuinely preferring the Axe. You're right... in this case it's not subjective at alI. You've based your conclusion on the 3 pillars of advertising:

 

1) Endorsements from a famous face.

2) Endorsements from Joe Average.

 3) Exploiting the perception that expensive stuff must be better than less expensive stuff, because otherwise no one in their right mind  would pay the money... millions of Monster Cables have been sold entirely under this premise. ;)

  

 

 

Yeah, so if the Helix is just as good (or better) as the Axe FX, considering that Line 6 is a bigger company and has more resources to do better marketing, then why hasn't the Helix replaced all of the Axes in the famous dudes' rigs? Why doesn't it have as many endorsements? Why aren't Axe users switching over to the Helix since it's way cheaper and can provide tones as good as the Axe?

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15 minutes ago, vstrattomusic said:

 

Yeah, so if the Helix is just as good (or better) as the Axe FX, considering that Line 6 is a bigger company and has more resources to do better marketing, then why hasn't the Helix replaced all of the Axes in the famous dudes' rigs? Why doesn't it have as many endorsements? Why aren't Axe users switching over to the Helix since it's way cheaper and can provide tones as good as the Axe?

 

Mostly because of #'s 1 and 3. Prestige is intoxicating. It has been used successfully to sell everything under the sun. Madison Avenue figured that out long ago. A Rolex is thousands of dollars...yet it does the same damn thing as a Timex.

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1 minute ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

Mostly because of #3. Works great for selling just about anything. 

 

But that's not always the case is it? It's like PC vs Mac, Macs are more expensive products, yet you can build a way more powerful Windows machine on your own for a lot less money, a lot of people dislike Apple for that and plenty of people say that their products are overpriced for what they are offering. Why is that not happening with Fractal?

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4 minutes ago, vstrattomusic said:

 

But that's not always the case is it? It's like PC vs Mac, Macs are more expensive products, yet you can build a way more powerful Windows machine on your own for a lot less money, a lot of people dislike Apple for that and plenty of people say that their products are overpriced for what they are offering. Why is that not happening with Fractal?

 

Huh? You made the exact same gripe about Fractal yourself...a sentiment which I echoed myself, and one that pops up around here constantly. There are plenty of guys simply unwilling to spend the rather exorbitant prices that Fractal demands. Particularly when there are other options that can fulfill their needs for far less money. If you're asking why it's not a society-wide discussion, happening at every office water cooler, and periodically showing up on the evening news, that's obvious... how many people own one or more computers? Now how many own a guitar modeler? It's a tiny, far more specialized demographic... plus we're all crazy. ;)

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34 minutes ago, vstrattomusic said:

 

Yeah, so if the Helix is just as good (or better) as the Axe FX, considering that Line 6 is a bigger company and has more resources to do better marketing, then why hasn't the Helix replaced all of the Axes in the famous dudes' rigs? Why doesn't it have as many endorsements? Why aren't Axe users switching over to the Helix since it's way cheaper and can provide tones as good as the Axe?

 

Rich rock stars use Fractal more often for 3 main reasons:

1) They can afford to buy whatever they want. What they want is not necessarily a decision based on logic or musically superior ears.

2) They like how Fractal sounds (regardless of whether or not they've ever tried anything else).

3) They like to be perceived as using only the best, and "everybody knows" that you get what you pay for.

 

Everyday working rock musicians using Helix probably (based on total sales) way outnumber Fractal users, but you wouldn't know that because nobody interviews them for MI mags, or pays them for endorsements. 

 

REALITY CHECK: Neither the big rock stars nor the average working band have audiences that can tell one from the other, or care.

 

 

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1 minute ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

Huh? You made the exact same gripe about Fractal yourself...a sentiment which I echoed myself, and one that pops up around here constantly. There are plenty of guys simply unwilling to spend the rather exorbitant prices that Fractal demands. Particularly when there are other options that can fulfill their needs for far less money. If you're asking why it's not a society-wide discussion, happening at every office water cooler, and periodically showing up on the evening news, that's obvious... how many people own one or more computers? Now how many own a guitar modeler? It's a tiny, far more specialized demographic... plus we're all crazy. ;)

 

Well, I wasn't saying it in that way, I can't afford the Axe FX III and it's expensive, but I don't consider that they're asking way too much for what they're offering, so if I had the money, I would buy it. With Apple on the other hand, I do consider that they're asking way too much for what they're offering, so I even if I had the money, I wouldn't buy it.

 

But yeah, lollipop it, I agree, guitar stuff is subjective, what I said was my opinion, not a fact. If someone can work better with the Helix than with the Axe, then better for their wallet.

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4 hours ago, vstrattomusic said:

 

I say that because;

 

-My Helix LT is around £700 brand new, the Axe FX III is like $2250 from their website, 2800€ from a EU distributor.

-I have seen a ton of bands that I like that use the Axe FX, even when using tube amp rigs, they just have the Axe laying around for effects, I have never seen a band that I like use the Helix.

-I've heard a lot of praise about the Axe FX since forever, when the Helix was launched, I remember reading a lot of criticism about the sound, how it was fizzy, or had that "Line 6 sound", or that it wasn't in the same league as the Axe FX and Kemper.

-You can read a lot of comments saying that it's easy to get a really good sound with the Axe Fx without barely touching anything, while it takes some tweaking with the Helix. 

 

You could say that it's all subjective, but there's a reason why the Helix is $1400 or $900 and the Axe is 2800€, there's a reason why most big name artists are using the Axe and not the Helix, and I don't think it's marketing, since Line 6 is way more popular than Fractal Audio.

 

I bought the Helix LT because I couldn't afford the Axe FX III, for me, it was definetly a step up from my solid state amps and VST plugins that I used to record, when I first used it, I was impressed, but when I put it in a mix I got angry because it wasn't easy to get the tone that I wanted out of it, I had to try many things to get where I wanted to be. I kept with it because of the 0 latency, as opposed to using plugins + interface, also because I had all of the effects I'll ever need in one place instead of messing with a 1000 plugins from different brands, and because it's my best option at this time and if I put some work in, I can make it sound like I want it to. But I don't think it's the best option if you have the money.

 

Actually, you're reasons are not logical. I get that they're compelling to you . . . but they don't pass as logic. Break them down quickly:

 

1. All the bands I like use Axe FX - none use Helix. 

 

So what? Let's imagine I hate all the bands you like. Lets throw another one on there. I happen to know my fave band DOES use Helix. By your reasoning, I have evidence now that the Helix is BETTER than the Axe. So clearly we once again have subjectivity - logic would argue that your observation could be chance, confirmation bias (you see what you WANT to see), or that it really IS better, but because it can mean all of those things, it is largely meaningless.  There are whole lot of other possible explanations too, but I won't bore you with them because the above makes the point. 

 

2. The Axe costs more. 

 

Again, this CAN mean something - but it can also be complete garbage.  Human beings literally pay vast sums of money for bottled water that was taken from a county tap. Apple iPhones cost significantly more than some of the best Android phones but claims to better are difficult to support. Apple PCs cost upwards of 4 times their PC competitors, and yet usually the far cheaper PC eats the Apple for lunch on performance.  People literally blow a fortune on alternative medicine that never shows any sort of improvement in double blind studies. 

 

In other words, Axe could largely be a really good unit (and it is) that has managed to gain a significant amount of hype. 

 

Price is not a scientific reason to claim superiority. 

 

3. I don't think it's the best option. 

 

There is the one thing that does matter.  If you believe it is - then it IS. Pure and simple. I personally think the Helix IS the best option, and so for me, it is. This is sound we're talking about, and the love of it is no different than me preferring seafood to steak. There is no objective truth over what sound is better. The ONLY scientific truth to be found here would be to analyze which modeler comes CLOSEST to the device it is modelling. To my knowledge, no such scientific public test exists.

 

However, even IF that test did exist and it conclusively demonstrated that the Axe was closer to a Vox 30 than the Helix, that wouldn't actually mean it's BETTER any more than the fact that a Vox 30 is closer to a Vox 30 means it's better than a Marshall. They are both legitimate sounds.  If the Axe player's models are more spot on - but I don't give a damn . . .

 

then in my world it doesn't matter one freaking bit. 

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4 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

But what would you measure? And what difference would it make if you found that Product A had more or less of X, Y, or Z than Product B? Is more "better"? There's no guarantee that you'd prefer one over the other, no matter what you're trying to quantify. And that's always what it will boil down to. Do I like this thing, or not? You might love it, and I might hate it... so who's right? Nobody.

 

And you could do your experiment with both companies going through their respective modeling processes with the exact same amps, mics, in the same room, etc, etc... and you'd still never get a consensus on which one was better, for the exact same reason: Perception is both variable, and notoriously fickle. We've all had the experience of loving our sound one day, and hating it the next... even when nothing has changed but the day of the week. You'll never get a room full of guitar players to universally agree on anything...

 

Looking at my whole post, it was flavoured to point out that there is no such mechanism.  Even if there was, that given that the models in both units are completed they can’t now be done with the exact same amp, same cab, same mics, same room, therefore no way to dig down and measure/compare which ones are better or more accurate.  At least not that I could think of.  So if there was a way to objectively make that statement it wouldn’t be based on any mechanical testing.  

 

Looking at the response from vstrattomusic, it doesn’t appear to be based on anything more than impression.    Despite how that sounds it’s not meant to be a knock, I think at certain points we all fall into that trap.  Stating something as fact without really considering why we think it’s the case or without considering that our reasons might be fallacious.   I’ve done the same thing many times on many different topics. 

 

Having said that, even if I were to accept the argument that more bands use it and that more people say it’s easier to get good sound out of it with less effort (both kind of variations on the argument ad populum fallacy) Neither really addresses that it’s down to the actual difference in the amp models.  I’m not sure what it would take to convince me, but I can say in everything I’ve seen and or heard, it hasn’t happened yet.  So in the end I chose helix because i liked the form factor. I was quite willing to spend on kemper or fractal.  They were all in the running, I just liked the all in one package ... less to hook up at the gig.

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11 hours ago, vstrattomusic said:

 

Yeah, so if the Helix is just as good (or better) as the Axe FX, considering that Line 6 is a bigger company and has more resources to do better marketing, then why hasn't the Helix replaced all of the Axes in the famous dudes' rigs? Why doesn't it have as many endorsements? Why aren't Axe users switching over to the Helix since it's way cheaper and can provide tones as good as the Axe?

 

It makes me laugh a little when people talk about famous guitar players nowadays. Who are they? Apart from maybe James Hetfield or The Edge, most of these could walk down the street and no one would recognize them. They're "guitar player famous", I guess.

 

Anyway, there's always inertia in play when you're talking about guys in touring bands. If you have a rig that works for you, what incentive is there to make major changes to it? Even when the Edge starts using something new, he doesn't get rid of his old stuff. He just gets another rack and brings more stuff along...

 

In terms of sheer numbers, there are more Helix users than Fractal users... Line 6 has had a few tremendous years because of the Helix. It's only going to get better. The incentive in making the Helix was not really to beat Fractal at their game. It was to create something that would thrill and inspire Helix users.

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So did Line 6 pretty much "invent" amp modeling with the POD? Were they the first to market (and so others have copied the concept, while all continue to evolve it)?

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5 minutes ago, soundog said:

So did Line 6 pretty much "invent" amp modeling with the POD? Were they the first to market (and so others have copied the concept, while all continue to evolve it)?

 

Well, a little bit earlier than that. as I understand it they debuted the first real world usable example in 1996 with their Flextone amp product. 

 

They've been refining their techniques ever since, and of course, many other companies have jumped on the bandwagon. 

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I think it really comes down the repeating theme in this thread (and others). This is musical equipment, its like paint brushes or paint to a visual artist. Everyone has preferences, and reasons for their preference, and if they're getting what they want out of the gear, excellet, if not, buy something else. I've not come across a modeler since probably the POD XT that I can't something out of that I like the sound. These are incredibly flexible devices, and it really comes down to player preference. I think AFX II/III modeling sounds a tiny bit better out of the box than Helix, but comparable IRs nearly level the field (for me), and the difference in cost is exponentially greater than the difference in tone. The layout and UI of the Helix just "clicks" for me (I don't think I've looked at a manual in the entire time I've owned it, and I pre-ordered), so I can do everything I want to do very quickly. 

TL;DR: Music equipment isn't a universally "good or bad" situation. Use the gear that works best for you, and don't tell people that something they like is inferior because it didn't work FOR YOU.

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I happened to stumble across this video today. I wasn't even looking for this kind of thing because I've seen numerous like it before, but it was one of the best ones I'd seen, and since we'd just spent several days arguing with people about this I thought I'd share it. 

 

You can test yourself against it before you see the big reveal, but if you want to see it it's at 22 minutes. I did this test myself because the Vox 30 is one of my all time fave amps. Just a side notes, I failed the test. I definitely can't make any tone sniffing claims to fame. 

 

I fully believe that you could do this test again and have a different winner chosen, because fact is as I and others have said throughout this whole post, there are TONS of high quality choices now. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Kilrahi said:

I happened to stumble across this video today ...

 

 

That was great, the reveal was pretty hilarious if you take the time to watch the whole thing. I guessed wrong, too.

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Interesting vid.  To me, it's a pretty good example of conformation bias.  They both picked out the best sounding amp and thought it was whichever one they owned.  Then they both picked out the worst sounding amp and guessed it to be the one they had an obvious dislike for.  I couldn't tell the difference other than the Spider V, which was rather obvious for me.

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The fun thing about these comparison videos is that they ALWAYS confirm my personal bias, which is that the best is what sounds best TO ME, whatever that is!

I CAN'T EVER GUESS WHICH IS THE REAL AMP!

This video was probably the worst for me because, IMHO, the only guitarist who ever sounded good thru Vox amps was Brian May, and he used a WALL of them and a weird homemade guitar to get his sound.

I don't think I've played more than 5 minutes through the Vox amps in the Helix or in any of the many sims I own. Just not my thing I guess.

The reveal really was funny though!

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