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DecayingWings

Helix LT sucks. Badly.

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I would suggest a different block setup - treat it like a real rig.  Your pic shows the reverb and delay after the IR block.  

 

The following is a template I use and then I switch out the preamps and IR's for different tones.

 

Vol>Wah>OD>NS>Preamp>(FX LOOP: Delay, Reverb, EQ)>IR.  

 

The order of blocks will have an affect on the overall sound.  

 

I'm not familiar with the OwnHammer IR's - I've been using Sigma Audio.  They provide 5 mic placements for the IR's and the mic placements do have a huge impact on the tone as well.  

 

You'll also want to put a high and low pass filter on the IR's - I set the lows at 80KHZ and the Highs at 8000Khz.  

 

Don't give up yet - it takes some experimentation!     

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I would suggest a different block setup - treat it like a real rig.  Your pic shows the reverb and delay after the IR block.  

 

The following is a template I use and then I switch out the preamps and IR's for different tones.

 

Vol>Wah>OD>NS>Preamp>(FX LOOP: Delay, Reverb, EQ)>IR.  

 

The order of blocks will have an affect on the overall sound.  

 

I'm not familiar with the OwnHammer IR's - I've been using Sigma Audio.  They provide 5 mic placements for the IR's and the mic placements do have a huge impact on the tone as well.  

 

You'll also want to put a high and low pass filter on the IR's - I set the lows at 80KHZ and the Highs at 8000Khz.  

 

Don't give up yet - it takes some experimentation!     

Thanks! Yeah I know the order is critical. How do you "put the delay and reverb and EQ into the loop"? I mean do I just add them after the preamp or do I have to do something "special" to "get them properly in the loop".

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It's the headphones. That could use a touch more plate reverb, but otherwise sounds damn good.

Okay :D Then I'm open to headphones suggestions. Put I'm not paying 500€ from headphones....

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Yup it sounds weak. Something is off because that patch sounds good through my setup.

Hmm okay...some other guy said it sounds good and the problem is the headphones :D

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Okay :D Then I'm open to headphones suggestions. Put I'm not paying 500€ from headphones....

 

Only my opinion. Rocco Crocco thinks it sounds off and weak. The only thing that stood out negatively to me was the palm muting part, which Helix doesn't negatively affect one way or the other.

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Check this out:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ul94m37tnvd0rpk/AintLove.mp3?dl=0

 

You tell me how this sounds like. I recorded this with the EVH patch from the video. If it sounds good to you then it IS the damned headphones :)

 

I don't think this sounds horrible... It sounds maybe a little harsh to me, but I wouldn't call it awful.

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Thanks! Yeah I know the order is critical. How do you "put the delay and reverb and EQ into the loop"? I mean do I just add them after the preamp or do I have to do something "special" to "get them properly in the loop".

Add an FX Loop block after the preamp - drag the reverb, delay and EQ down into a separate "loop" path and then put the IR onto the main path as the last block.  

 

I'll take some photos of patches I've made and post them tonight for a visual reference for you.  

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Add an FX Loop block after the preamp - drag the reverb, delay and EQ down into a separate "loop" path and then put the IR onto the main path as the last block.  

 

I'll take some photos of patches I've made and post them tonight for a visual reference for you.  

Thank you! I try it out.

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More reverb and some of that 218ms echo from the 'Transistor Tape' FX which you also need to to crank to +6dB to push the front of the amp a touch harder. Just like the guy does in the EVH Atomic Punk patch upthread. That's what EVH did, which is why it sounds correct :)

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I would suggest a different block setup - treat it like a real rig.  Your pic shows the reverb and delay after the IR block.  

 

The following is a template I use and then I switch out the preamps and IR's for different tones.

 

Vol>Wah>OD>NS>Preamp>(FX LOOP: Delay, Reverb, EQ)>IR.  

 

The order of blocks will have an affect on the overall sound.  

 

I'm not familiar with the OwnHammer IR's - I've been using Sigma Audio.  They provide 5 mic placements for the IR's and the mic placements do have a huge impact on the tone as well.  

 

You'll also want to put a high and low pass filter on the IR's - I set the lows at 80KHZ and the Highs at 8000Khz.  

 

Don't give up yet - it takes some experimentation!     

 

You're right that you should treat the blocks like real kit, and you are right that the order affects the tone. Which is why I'd recommend a quick look at the video posted on the previous page. That is *exactly* the secret to getting the EVH1 tone right...

 

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Headphones are definitely the worst possible way to listen to Helix, or anything else like it. Actual monitors sound much better. If you are running it through an actual guitar amp, then you either need to go 4 cable method or bypass amp all together and just use the effects. Otherwise the results will probably sound pretty bad as this is not how it is intended to be used. Maybe with some high quality studio headphones it would sound a little better. But to just hear it in a room, monitors are the way to go.

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Headphones are definitely the worst possible way to listen to Helix, or anything else like it. Actual monitors sound much better.

Perhaps not the best way, but I love my helix through my headphones ;-)

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Headphones are definitely the worst possible way to listen to Helix, or anything else like it. Actual monitors sound much better. If you are running it through an actual guitar amp, then you either need to go 4 cable method or bypass amp all together and just use the effects. Otherwise the results will probably sound pretty bad as this is not how it is intended to be used. Maybe with some high quality studio headphones it would sound a little better. But to just hear it in a room, monitors are the way to go.

It sounds good (not as good as when i use it 4CM or as when i use it thrue my studio monitors) on my headphones an old pair of AKG 271 MK I i have a really old AKG K340 laying and collecting dust and a cheap Beyer Dynamics DT 231 "Pro" as always with ghear that say Pro it is actually NOT Pro gear

Gonna test those headphones some day

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Well it sounds OK.........not bad.  Not great.  What I hear though is a sound that does not match your screen shot!

There is lots of Flanging - but no flanger in your chain??

Let me suggest that you go into global EQ and set the low cut at 100hz  then high cut somewhere around 5-6KHz.

Take any classic amp with a matching cab with nothing else and see how that sounds.

If you have no sustain still, check your input impedance.  Auto normally is fine.

And try to hear it through speakers (totally flat stereo should be OK)  Not into a guitar amp.

Yes, I suspect your headphones too like others - some headphones seem to work badly with the Helix.

And talking about that, are the headphones plugged into the Helix or your DAW?

Unless there is something faulty with your Helix (not likely given your sound sample), you have to accept that the patch you were shown sounds good - just not in your setup.  So there is something at your end causing your problem.

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Thanks for the tips! I try out this next. The EVH patch completely lacked the gain and sustain.

Have you really heard the EVH tone from that period isolated?

 

Not much gain on the tones from the first 3 albums

 

It wasnt until he started to use the 5150 head he started to sound more "gainy" 

 

In that dropbox clip you posted you used waaay to much gain or distortion to sound like EVH

 

The key to get his sound is to PLAY like EVH that means very aggressive he really attack the strings hard.

 

I bet EVH would sound fantastic on Helix thats for sure.

 

Here is a dude that can get good metaltone from Helix but he uses some slate plugins to finetune the sound so it isnt really a "pure" Helix sound you hear.

But close enough to know it can sound very good.

 

He have many videos with helix he also make videos with other modelers like Kemper Axe FX and many plugins,

 

In the video where the EVH preset is he uses an EVH guitar loaded with Paf style pickups and more importantly played like EVH he really seems to have study him alot.

 

BUT this is important just beacuse he uploaded a preset to custom tone doesnt mean it gonna sound like it does on the video on YOUR system.

I tried it and switch to an IR a.s.a.p and it sounded way better but i still had to tweak it so it sounded good on my system (I still havent finish it i have trouble to get the reverb to sound "right")

 

As always with presets someone else make you have to alter them a bit

 

I had a Boss GT100 before i bought Helix and the presets i dl from internet didnt sound as good on MY GT as it did when i saw the video of those presets.

 

Here is a few tips i ALWAYS use a HP/LP block after the cab and set it to atleast 80hz/8khz and then slowly turn the slider to get it where i want soundwise.

 

And as always use the input gate on every preset.

 

Another tip is to have the BIG volym at say 1 o clock i sometimes even have it on 11 o clock but you are using headphones so start at zero and slowly raise it until you are satisfied.

 

The Chad Boston setting on the globals is another tips

Guitar In Pad is set top ON

All outputs is set to instrument (Important when you use 4CM) some users like me have to have the XLR out set to mic instead of line otherwise the sound is very harsh..

 

Also experiment with the input impedance i tend to use 22k ohm often and sometimes i try other if 22 is to muddy it depends on which guitar i use.

 

I have owned Helix for a long time and you are NOT the first one to mention it sucks

 

I had the exatct same experience i was about to return Helix after 2-3 days but i saw some videos on youtube where other people could sound good so i gave it some more time and 1 1/2 year later i say i am glad i didn't return it

My best tone is 4CM but i found the Amp block sounded better than the Preamp block i still have hopes that they will refine all high gain amps in future updates so far they have only added more amps which b.t.w sounds better than the ones they had there from start.

 

But i still think getting a good high gain sound on Helix is very hard you have to tweak alot with EQ and sometimes the multiband compressor

 

I tend to use the PRS model which is awesome and so is Badonk,Fatality,Epic and JCM Modded and even the Soldano with a dist pedal that boost it.

 

And i really like the new Trainwreck and Cartographer you can get some awesome high gain tone out of those amps oh and of course the MKIV which i use for all my Petrucci presets..

 

 

I never use the 5150 or the Engl or Bogner

 

I also always use IR when i use high gain sounds with ownhammer you need the EQ settings which is mention in the manual after the IR block

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Have you really heard the EVH tone from that period isolated?

 

Not much gain on the tones from the first 3 albums

 

[...]

 

The key to get his sound is to PLAY like EVH that means very aggressive he really attack the strings hard.

 

 

+1

 

So much of what some hear as high gain with early EVH is his right hand. Pick attack and pick harmonics.

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EVH even holds a pick differently than most of us. He will typically have it between his thumb and middle finger. I’ve tried this and not only is it difficult for me, but it produces a much heavier attack and seems to be a characteristic part of his tone. Regarding gain, there is a noticeable difference in sound and feel between pre-amp gain and power amp distortion, both in a real tube amp and in Helix. One thing I really like about Helix is the way it can reproduce power amp distortion at a low volume. It does however require some knowledge of the deep editing parameters (master, sag, bias, bias X, etc) and a willingness to tweak for hours on end!

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Not sure this is helpful regarding the headphones that you're using, but this is from page 7 of the Helix manual:

 

"NOTE: Helix provides plenty of gain for high impedance headphones. With lower impedance headphones, you may notice a bit of distortion if the PHONES knob is turned all the way up. This is normal."

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Check this out:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ul94m37tnvd0rpk/AintLove.mp3?dl=0

 

You tell me how this sounds like. I recorded this with the EVH patch from the video. If it sounds good to you then it IS the damned headphones :)

I don't think this is a great tone, but I don't think it sucks. It's a good starting point and very tweakable. It definitely needs more balls. I don't play metal, but FWIW, here is what I'd do with that tone:

Add an EQ and boost some 250hz. Possibly a little 500hz.

Work with Helix cabs and experiment with mics and mic placement. I'd probably do a double 412 cab and mic one with a 4038 ribbon and the other with a 421 dynamic. Put them on different paths with an A/B split so you could eq with more or less of one cab over the other.

Add in a little Master Volume to bring in just a little low end hair.

Add a compressor just to see if it helps. I think it might.

Possibly just a touch of reverb to give it some body.

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Interesting... I have Helix and Helix LT for backup. Had Fractal units and Kemper, too.

I get way better tones out of them. Check your global eq and make sure no one monkeyed with it before you purchased it.

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I was wrong - the FX Loop is for 4CM routing.  

But the idea is the same - set it up like a real rig.

Example:  Vol>Wah>OD>NG>Preamp>(Loop Effects:Reverb, Delay, EQ)>IR or Cab

This is my first time trying to post pics, so let's see how it goes....

IR setup 

 

post-1033205-0-60744000-1515203778_thumb.jpg

 

4CM with my Mesa TC-50

 

post-1033205-0-58257300-1515203796_thumb.jpg

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what is your recording chain ..? and recording rate (wav 24bit ?)

yeah that recording doesn't sound great to me.. also it sounds like a pretty low rate mp3 .?

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apparently the OP cannot post anymore, that's what he told me. I offered to help him through PM and he responded so I sent him a couple of my patches from the 2.30 Essential Amps Collection and asked him to load them and send me some audio clips which he did. He told me that he thought they "sounded really good". Out of respect for him I won't post his actual reply but as far as I know and what he told me he was happy with what I had sent him. I think people that come from other platforms or other modelers think they can just get one of these, plug in and BOOM!!!! they've got great sound!! NO!!!! I Say NO!!!  Did you sound good when you got your first real Marshall Amp when you were a teenager?? Did you sound good 2 years after that when you joined a band and started figuring out how to play live?? The Helix is just like any guitar device. You have to learn how it works, you have to learn how to use it, you have to "Read The Manual", Yes i said it!!! Once you can wrap your brain around this device it can be a great tool for Live gigs, Studio Recording or just pure enjoyment while listening with a descent set of headphones.

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Just to add to the headphones debate - I didn't get on with my Helix through headphones until I got a good high impedance pair. The Helix's headphone out is VERY hot, and can easily drive even good quality low impedance headphones into unpleasant fizzy distortion.

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apparently the OP cannot post anymore, that's what he told me. I offered to help him through PM and he responded so I sent him a couple of my patches from the 2.30 Essential Amps Collection and asked him to load them and send me some audio clips which he did. He told me that he thought they "sounded really good". Out of respect for him I won't post his actual reply but as far as I know and what he told me he was happy with what I had sent him. I think people that come from other platforms or other modelers think they can just get one of these, plug in and BOOM!!!! they've got great sound!! NO!!!! I Say NO!!!  Did you sound good when you got your first real Marshall Amp when you were a teenager?? Did you sound good 2 years after that when you joined a band and started figuring out how to play live?? The Helix is just like any guitar device. You have to learn how it works, you have to learn how to use it, you have to "Read The Manual", Yes i said it!!! Once you can wrap your brain around this device it can be a great tool for Live gigs, Studio Recording or just pure enjoyment while listening with a descent set of headphones.

 

Lots of wisdom here, unsurprisingly, given the source :)

 

It's not constructive to start off blaming the tools.

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>>Did you sound good when you got your first real Marshall Amp when you were a teenager??

 

Not until I figured out to put a TS in front of it :D

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A lot of times my guitar sucks because it just can't play what I am trying to accomplish. I think that's for another forum though...

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Don't know if you've tried this, but have you try to adjust the output block of your patch?

When I practice with Headphones, I use (Digital S/PDIF, AES/EBU, L6 LINK) output block - refer to pg. 22 on manual book 

Adjust your output level accordingly.

 

IMHO, there's nothing wrong with HELIX 

Just take time to understand all the features.

;)

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I have replied to this topic in general recently....the biggest issue between the amp models and a real amp is the headroom and dynamics that a real amp with tubes has.....when i play a helix model by itself it sounds great..(Mesa, ENGL, etc...)..but what i noticed was a big difference when i recorded my real Mesa or ENGL preamps in a mix compared to their Helix models....the real amp tones where much more alive and really came though the mix at the same volume levels where the Helix models struggled....i tried lots of boosting and EQing to compensate on the Helix models but i just couldn't get it to sound as good as my real amps...the analogy i have come up with is that the model is like a copy of real life...you don't notice the difference until you compare it to the real thing...and as i said before...if the difference doesn't bother you....then your good to go with a Helix. 

 

FYI....I don't know how many people out there have tried the TH3 cabs (not crazy about the amp models or effects) but they have some amazing out of the box cabs that blow away the Helix cab sounds and most IR's that i have heard (and i have 100's of them). Amazing mic placement and mixing capability...and the best ENGL 4x12, MESA 4x12, and Lane 2x12 cabs i have heard....really sweet....they are all i use now with my real amps and my Helix amp models.

 

Enjoy...

 

Dan 

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I find myself changing my settings based on whatever I decide to use as my FRFR or amp.  When I first started with the Helix, I was sick that I had spent that much money for what originally sounded like HD500 deluxe.  I have since discovered, that like everything I have touched with a Line6 logo, there is a learning curve, but once you nail that sound you have been seeking, it is digital magic.  I currently don't use anything that I would call special, but I have settings for Yamaha HS8 monitors that wind up being a great deal different than my settings for an EV ZLX15P.  I have also gotten some amazing sounds from my amp setup by diming everything except the preamp and using the preamp from the Helix.  If you are new to Line6, there will probably be some serious frustration factor in the beginning.

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I am guessing this is your first experience with a modeler. Just because you have 30 years experience does not mean you will plug into a modeler and just start playing the tones that are in your head. It doesn't work that way. The guy in this video doesn't have an issue with EVH tones. It takes experience and time in the digital realm. If it is too frustrating to you, you may just want to get yourself a reactive load and send your "real" amp signal to your DAW. 

 

Could you tell me where the patch of this tone is? what is it called sounds awesome great work.

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Could you tell me where the patch of this tone is? what is it called sounds awesome great work.

He listed a link on the youtube video check here  ;)

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Okay :D Then I'm open to headphones suggestions. Put I'm not paying 500€ from headphones....

I'm using 20 dollar Behringer's and they sound awesome

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