Helix vs AXFX 3, seriously...

[Kilrahi]

7 minutes ago, MarkJarvis said:

 Well more like a tweaker's nightmare. I have spent alot of time with Helix, got about as good as i think possible ..

 

Well it's not all bad news. At least now you know which unit you want. You'll be able to recoup some of the Helix loss if you sell it soon. Those tend to go for a pretty solid amount on the used market.

 

I'd make sure you check the Kemper at least once before you buy an Axe only because it is also significantly cheaper than the Axe FX. Still, if you have ANY doubts at all between which of those two are better then you should just save up and pull the trigger on the Fractal. Compromising on something this expensive will just lead to ulcers later.

 

Well, that and a post on the Kemper fan forums called, "Kemper vs AXFX 3, seriously..."

[gunpointmetal]

If you think the Helix is a tweaker's nightmare, don't open the deep parameters in the Fractal-verse. Seriously, this whole "show me you clips" thing is kind of like when you tell someone you don't like their favorite band and they say "well, what does your band sound like?"

Totally irrelevant. 

If you like something, can afford it, and want it, buy it. I'll admit Fractal gets about 3% more "feel" in their amp models (when they're run through a real cab, DI into a PA I can't tell the difference from a playing perspective with equal cabinet modeling), but I can't justify a 100% price difference for a 3% feel difference. 

[Verne-Bunsen]

I don’t understand your angle, man. No body here is telling you that the AXFX 3 is junk or that you are foolish for liking it, in fact to the contrary everybody seems to be  saying that you should totally be going with whatever you like. Why all the effort to convince us that Helix is inferior? What’s in it for you? It is possible to express an opinion without making it a mission to convert everybody who doesn’t share it...

[phil_m]

17 minutes ago, MarkJarvis said:

 Well more like a tweaker's nightmare. I have spent alot of time with Helix, got about as good as i think possible ..

 

I was an early beta tester, so I’ve had my Helix for almost four years now. I’m still finding new tones and sounds that inspire me.

 

What is it, exactly, that you’re hearing in the Axe FX III tones that you’re not hearing from the Helix?

[TheBoyWithDog]

Thread is seeming officially pointless since mark just said this then disappeared.

 

On the contrary, Mark you should post a sound you’re working that you think sounds good and we’ll tell you where to improve.

 

post your clip / preset

[rvroberts]

I actually suspect this person is a troll.

But I do find many people failing to get great sounds from the Helix while they get good sounds more easily from some other gear.

This has nothing to do with the ease of use of the device - the Helix is pretty easy to use providing you get the whole idea that you are modelling real devices and if you run a fuzz into a HiFi unit it sounds "harsh!!!".

It is more about tailored sound libraries. If you select a Fender Deluxe amp and strum a chord and it's what you like to hear instantly, you might be inclined to think that's the best device you ever heard.

We are all familiar with talking people through FRFR and high and low cuts etc.  You have to understand some basic concepts - even Fletcher Munson curves.

Truely to exploit any modeller well the same applies, but quiet obviously a lot of users don't.

Then you also need to have a good idea of what the real effects that are being modelled are meant to sound like.  I imagine without any of that real world experience, it's a very frustrating experience using the Helix.

Yes, if you get all that, the Helix has a great interface to allow you to tweak to your heart's content.  If you don't - there's a lot to learn and so many wrong turns its no doubt very tempting to just think you need some other device.

If you are a player - in a band or recording - you know your job requires you to make sounds that sit in a mix -almost as much as playing the correct notes.  Sometimes that sound might be produced by a $50 guitar through a old radio..........

There is no best - just what works to support the music.

I chose the Helix because it gave me a great tool kit in a very convenient form factor.  It still works for me. 

[TheBoyWithDog]

I think mark started with their best intention at least.

 

Helix has good sounds. I avoid the cabs though - they’re sorta a weak point for me - they don’t make much sense.

 

ive never a/b’ed the helix and axe but maybe I’ll post some similar presets for people to compare / critique.

 

and also for Mark 

[cruisinon2]

4 hours ago, Lachdanan0121 said:

Umm seriously? you don't know?!? I mean isn't it obvious? its bacon. LOL

 

On a serious note, nice lead guitar work in the examples above. 

 

Thank you sir, much appreciated! 

 

And after some sober reflection, I think I'd have to vote for bacon, too. Forgive me...I skipped lunch today.  ;)

[cruisinon2]

4 hours ago, Verne-Bunsen said:

Why all the effort to convince us that Helix is inferior? What’s in it for you? 

 

He's not trying to convince anyone else of anything. He's trying to talk himself into a $3K purchase that he clearly wants, but is having trouble justifying. Otherwise he'd have skipped this absurd "my finely tuned perception is better than yours" dance, and his Axe III would already be in transit.

[cgar18]

7 hours ago, MarkJarvis said:

Listening to that video demo, Helix doesnt sound anywhere close 

Ive heard better axe 3 demos and listen to what this guys does with the helix.If you want to spend the extra 13-1600 for the axe fx3 and pedals go ahead.

 

[MarkJarvis]

 

 

cruisinon2--- you always yak but say nothing

 

[cruisinon2]

7 minutes ago, MarkJarvis said:

 

 

cruisinon2--- you always yak but say nothing

 

 

Now that hurts...I might not sleep tonight.  And yourself? What have you brought to the table with any of this?

[jefflynyrd]

So, let me get this straight, the Axe FXIII is 2300 dollars with no volume/wah peddle. I've had my Helix for just over 2 months and am so satisfied and heard a hundred or so GREAT sounding videos on youtube. MarkJarvis is just poking anyone that wants to spend the time to read his jibberjabber. He also hasn't tried to find the tone in the Helix or on youtube. I'm sure AXFX is a great unit! I know, I KNOW Helix is as well...

[Kilrahi]

38 minutes ago, jefflynyrd said:

So, let me get this straight, the Axe FXIII is 2300 dollars with no volume/wah peddle. I've had my Helix for just over 2 months and am so satisfied and heard a hundred or so GREAT sounding videos on youtube. MarkJarvis is just poking anyone that wants to spend the time to read his jibberjabber. He also hasn't tried to find the tone in the Helix or on youtube. I'm sure AXFX is a great unit! I know, I KNOW Helix is as well...

 

That was my experience testing the AxeFX, Kemper, and the Helix. 

 

My personal opinion was there was no significant difference in any of the sounds (by significant I mean I could never get one to sound EXACTLY like the other, but I never felt any of those differences were the result of a superior distinction one had over the other, and I felt like any of those three could easily create whatever tone I needed.

 

BUT The cost of the Helix, especially with the LT as an option, was FAR less, and its routing power seemed far and away more advanced. To me the choice was no contest.  So I decided when I had enough money I'd buy one. 

 

Then the HX Stomp came out right around the time I was halfway saved up - and well - I pulled the switch and haven't looked back. 

 

I have no doubt that my bias to save money if I could helped lean me to the Helix, but there's no way in hell I think it's worth spending $1,000, or in my case, nearly $2,000. I would have buyer's remorse 24/7. 

[spikey]

4 hours ago, cgar18 said:

Ive heard better axe 3 demos and listen to what this guys does with the helix.If you want to spend the extra 13-1600 for the axe fx3 and pedals go ahead.

 

 

Most excellent tones from this video! I really don't give a shyzial if someone claims there's better tones out there because this is real good!  Thanks for sharing.

[Simon268]

hmmmmyeahh...

Although I like it, I am always a little bit skeptical about those videos.

I enjoy them, but they are the result of a wide combination of gear AND Skills: The Player chose the right guitar and playing style for the sound .... AND has both a good and fitting guitar and playing skills.

 

Those videos show, what this combination CAN sound like .... but not, what I WILL sound like;-)

 

Bye Simon

[spikey]

Quote

Those videos show, what this combination CAN sound like .... but not, what I WILL sound like;-)

 

Simon, it will sound like that because it did sound like that. No need to be skeptical, re-listen to it for further proof above,. Yes, the guy put in the hours/days/weeks/DECADES and it shows. He plays well. If its skills you or I lack in making these same tones happen, that's on us and NOT the equipment's fault. Its not magic, and you don't need the Apple computer or the bed he has in the video to sound that good, just a desire and lots of practice. In fact, I personally "want" Helix to sound this good and think it would be stupid for any of us not to. So the goals have been set and achievements are there to reach for. As far as it not being real or reachable or fair or some such nonsense, we generally need to all get past the disbelief just because we might not be able to do it yet, it's not realistic, or have a desire for immediate gratification in this kind of guitar playing- cause that ain't gonna happen (in that there will always be someone that learns and plays or sounds better/faster/cleaner than we can),  and just do more woodshedding on the plank. ; )

[codamedia]

4 hours ago, Simon268 said:

Those videos show, what this combination CAN sound like .... but not, what I WILL sound like;-)

 

IMO, it shows that the Helix is more than capable of the job. The rest is up to the user.

[phil_m]

5 hours ago, Simon268 said:

hmmmmyeahh...

Although I like it, I am always a little bit skeptical about those videos.

I enjoy them, but they are the result of a wide combination of gear AND Skills: The Player chose the right guitar and playing style for the sound .... AND has both a good and fitting guitar and playing skills.

 

Those videos show, what this combination CAN sound like .... but not, what I WILL sound like;-)

 

Bye Simon

 

Well, yeah, no demo is going to reveal to you what you will sound like. The dirty little secret with gear is that if you can't make the gear you have right now sound good, your new gear will probably sound bad, too.

[spikey]

13 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

He's not trying to convince anyone else of anything. He's trying to talk himself into a $3K purchase that he clearly wants, but is having trouble justifying. Otherwise he'd have skipped this absurd "my finely tuned perception is better than yours" dance, and his Axe III would already be in transit.

1

 

Quote

Not trying to start trouble...

 

Yea right.... Cru I'm more inclined to suggest he's here to do the opposite of what he said he wasn't here for.

I.E. I don't have any problem with folks bragging about the Axe FX-III, as long as they are not unfairly running down Helix to do it.

 

[cgar18]

13 hours ago, cgar18 said:

Ive heard better axe 3 demos and listen to what this guys does with the helix.If you want to spend the extra 13-1600 for the axe fx3 and pedals go ahead.

 

Sure if I had the extra money,or instead of a vacation(im not a vacation guy anyway) I would save up and buy an axe3 BUT its not no.1 on my list because The helix  is enough.Sure I would buy it because Im a manchild an I like toys BUT when I think about it its to much because Im not giving up my helix,I would have to find a way to use both,but that is not necessary.I am considering getting a stomp as a little back up. 

[ernsttore]

If there should be any comparison it should be between the amps and the modelers,

so this discussion is pointless.....

Does a fart sound organic, and does it smell good.... lets rather discuss that!

[hideout]

21 hours ago, MarkJarvis said:

Hi All

Not trying to start trouble...I have been a very long time Line 6 user (POD 500 and Helix owner) but just listening to the 'stock' Fractal AXFX 3 sounds (263 amps) this thing kills...I just dont think there is any real comparison..maybe Line 6 can update Helix..and maybe its just me but damm I dont get that feeling listeing to the stock patches of helix or third party or my custom presets..

 

What do you guys thinK?

DEMO of Fractal AXFX 3 presets

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEPZIQ6Yqzk

 

I would never judge a modeler by its factory presets. Ever. And I can't understand why people would even do that.

The proof is in how or if it's able to let you make it sound the way you want it to. Obviously you liked Fractal's factory presets and that's fine but I'd bet that plenty of people who don't because no factory preset will ever please everybody. Full Stop.

[erabjohns]

The Axe FX III looks & sounds like an amazing product.  I am sure there are places that the III can go that Helix can't quite get there, and I think it primarily is in the high-gain realm.  I don't play high gain other than as a novelty now and then, so that isn't a selling point for me.  Delays & Reverbs are richer, I'm sure but again, there isn't anything exclusively in the III that is a requirement for me.

 

Honestly, when comparing clean and edge or break up amp models, I can hear a (usually slight) difference but that difference isn't a good/bad thing.  It is almost a tweak in how something is EQ'd so that could be easily replicated on either device.  If the difference comes down to the modeled amp's dynamic response and "feel", then I can understand why people say the difference is a big as they sometimes do.  I haven't played the Axe FX III so I can't make a judgement call on that.  I do know that the POD HD series sounded good but did not feel at all like a real amp.  The Helix overcame this issue for me, which was a big deal.  I can't imagine there's room left for Fractal to make as big of a jump in amp response (from Helix to the III) that I saw coming from the HD to the Helix, but then again, I can't compare the two units.  

 

At the end of the day, I use 6 Helix amps on a regular basis(8 once 2.8 gets here!).  I use a smattering of overdrives, maybe 4 different kind of delays, 4 different kinds of reverbs and I got pretty light on the modulation.  Trying new amp models is fun, but I can't justify the Axe FX III price tag just to monkey around.  I will say the Helix UI is better than Fractal.  The fact that I can edit settings on a Helix as fast as I can do it on an amp or pedal, without being tied to a computer is groundbreaking IMO.  

[brue58ski]

18 hours ago, Kilrahi said:

 

My opinion is they kind of default all of their settings to middle of the road just "okay." Rather than push it in one particular direction (which is only good for specific people loving that sound) they leave it at a midway jumping off point where a user has a huge number of directions that they can go, so that after tweaking a user ends up where they want to be.

 

 

This speaks to the need for Helix to allow you to change the default settings for the Amps/Effects/etc. on the Helix. Line 6 has had it in their products before. Howsabout now? Vote it up on ideascale here

 

https://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Create-defaults-for-each-amp-effect-overriding-L6-s-presets/791964-23508#idea-tab-comments

[hideout]

21 hours ago, MarkJarvis said:

No i am just asking for those who say helix is great to post a clip so i can hear it...

 

 

Great to whom???

 

Personally, I don't create patches to please anybody but ME.  You don't like it or think it sucks? Well, you know what they say about opinions...

Kilrahi is absolutely right not to post anything for you to judge.

[cruisinon2]

1 hour ago, hideout said:

 

Great to whom???

 

Personally, I don't create patches to please anybody but ME.  You don't like it or think it sucks? Well, you know what they say about opinions...

Kilrahi is absolutely right not to post anything for you to judge.

 

Best part is, it was all "Show me, show me, show me!"... and then he ignored all the clips that were posted anyway, lol... I've seen more skillful manipulation from little old ladies in retirement homes.

[Kilrahi]

52 minutes ago, brue58ski said:

 

This speaks to the need for Helix to allow you to change the default settings for the Amps/Effects/etc. on the Helix. Line 6 has had it in their products before. Howsabout now? Vote it up on ideascale here

 

https://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Create-defaults-for-each-amp-effect-overriding-L6-s-presets/791964-23508#idea-tab-comments

 

Great idea. Voted!

[Lachdanan0121]

1 hour ago, erabjohns said:

The Axe FX III looks & sounds like an amazing product.  I am sure there are places that the III can go that Helix can't quite get there, and I think it primarily is in the high-gain realm. 

 

 

As a high gain player I will say there is probably some truth to this. However, I honestly think that has more to do with options currently avail in each unit. Axe FX has plenty of high gain options to choose from. The Helix is rather lacking in the high gain department by comparison, those of us that play high gain pretty much agree on that. Hopefully over the next few updates the helix will get some well deserved high gain focus. (modern, and vintage)

 

At that point the gap will have closed significantly, as the sound quality gap is small to begin with, and the high gain options is where the gap really lies.

 

Helix can do high gain really well, it just needs more options.

[funkyou86]

I got rid of my Axe II because of too many options :D

[codamedia]

2 hours ago, brue58ski said:

This speaks to the need for Helix to allow you to change the default settings for the Amps/Effects/etc. on the Helix. Line 6 has had it in their products before. Howsabout now? Vote it up on ideascale here

 

What Line 6 products had the option of storing different "default settings" for the Amps/Effects? 

I've had the original POD Bean, POD2 Bean, X3 Bean, X3 Live, HD500, HX Effects and now the Helix LT. Unless I've missed it, I've never seen that option. 

 

Don't get me wrong, it's a great idea and I will upvote it! I'm just curious where it may have been used before by Line 6.

[DunedinDragon]

Honestly, I am SOOOOOOOOO proud of myself that I avoided even looking at this discussion for as long as I have.  I mean, being the sarcastic demon I am I could have had an absolute BLAST with this thread, but I'm slowly learning to conserve my snide remarks so I have plenty of them for when I REALLY need them...although I have to admit the OP has made this is one quite tempting.....

At any rate, I think you guys are doing a fine job on your own.  Carry on........

[phil_m]

38 minutes ago, codamedia said:

 

What Line 6 products had the option of storing different "default settings" for the Amps/Effects? 

I've had the original POD Bean, POD2 Bean, X3 Bean, X3 Live, HD500, HX Effects and now the Helix LT. Unless I've missed it, I've never seen that option. 

 

Don't get me wrong, it's a great idea and I will upvote it! I'm just curious where it may have been used before by Line 6.

 

The PODxt and XT Live allowed you to overwrite the default amp/cab settings. I'm pretty sure those were the only PODs that had it. I believe you could do it on the Vetta as well.

[brue58ski]

12 minutes ago, phil_m said:

 

The PODxt and XT Live allowed you to overwrite the default amp/cab settings. I'm pretty sure those were the only PODs that had it. I believe you could do it on the Vetta as well.

 

The Vetta and Vetta II had that as well. Vetta manual pg 4-24, Vetta II manual pg 4-26. Pod XT manual page 2-5.

[codamedia]

8 minutes ago, phil_m said:

 

The PODxt and XT Live allowed you to overwrite the default amp/cab settings. I'm pretty sure those were the only PODs that had it. I believe you could do it on the Vetta as well.

 

There you have it.... the only Line 6 POD Products I haven't owned - LOL! 

[Simon268]

Hi

 

 

9 hours ago, spikey said:

 

Simon, it will sound like that because it did sound like that. No need to be skeptical, ...

 

I think, you missed my crucial point: It wasnt about IT (!!!!!) - it was about ME (!!!!)

I dont put the Helix on stage and let it do the job - it's me (first difference) on the stage with my (Next difference) guitar there with the Helix. And even with the exact same Helix settings we three together will sound differently (not to mention sound guy, room accoustics, repertoire,...)

or like codamedia put it:

 

8 hours ago, codamedia said:

 

.... The rest is up to the user.

 

...and that's way more than 50%.

 

My point isnt that the Helix would be bad (its not) or that the man in the video would be cheating (he isnt) ... its just that i dont give such videos great weight in my decision to buy (or skip) certain Equipment.

Those guys are YT-professionals and would never upload a video with other than great sound and playing.

(usability is a completely different thing: Seeing the workflow of such devices in action gives me a good insight)

 

My decision to try the Helix on my own was more triggered by a friend - who i rate as a not better guitarist than me and with a very similar taste in music and sound. He has the Helix for 1-2 years and considered it the best (musical) decision in his life.

 

i hope i could ease sone of the confusion. :-)

 

thx

 

Simon

[spikey]

Yea Simon I'm glad you cleared that up.

 

Quote

Those guys are YT-professionals and would never upload a video with other than great sound and playing.

 

On major brands, I'm thinking they can afford to do that and most likely do, OTOH I've watched many who were not YT pros yet they could play the heck outta the guitar. In fact, I would guess that the "non-pros" outnumber the pros by 20-1 on youtube, but again names mean nothing without the action to back it up. Take the Helix L-6 link port for example. Until 2.8 is released it won't really be what it was in the HD series midi-control wise.

 

In any case, I'm glad to find out you don't believe that Helix cant be played well unless you a pro. ; )

[cgar18]

 

[cgar18]

8 minutes ago, cgar18 said:

 

I forgot to mention how he favors the Helix,so its a matter of opinion as usual so enough lollipop measuring.

[Kilrahi]

38 minutes ago, cgar18 said:

I forgot to mention how he favors the Helix,so its a matter of opinion as usual so enough lollipop measuring.

 

To me they were all solid respectable sounds. Anyone with skill at the guitar could do wondrous things with any one of them. What's more, while I could hear the differences, I could immediately think of controls I could use on the Axe to make it sound more like the Helix if I wanted, or the Thermionik if I wanted to make it sound like the Helix. The differences were so subtle that it's just impossible for me to believe that with some minor tweaking you couldn't get there.

 

That's where I think we are in the modern world. Processors long ago crossed the threshold needed to do superb modelling. The question with the top tier units now is which one best suits your needs as a player.

 

For me, I can not fathom anything that would make me want me to spend another $1700 bucks to hit Axe level.  That doesn't mean another player doesn't have a need met by the Fractal. It just means I don't and I'm a happy Sixer, and that's OKAY. In a world where we're about ready to go at each others throats over national emergencies, do we really need to bring that level of a fight to guitar gear? 

 

What's next? Baby wipes?