Helix 2.90 vs Axe FX III

[hausi_117]

This topic has surely been brought up a lot of times, but how does the Helix with the current firmware 2.90 and its improvements compare (soundwise) to the axe? I am currently a Hx Stomp user (had an AX8 before, but sold it because it was frustrating to program and use) and have been very statisfied with the results I got lately and I got very close to the AX8.

 

since the fractal FM3 is coming out and I cant decide wheter to get the helix floor (for more flexibility, the stomp isnt enough for me anymore) or the the fractal, (because a lot of people praise the modelling of the axe fx 3) I wanna ask if someone has both and if there really is such a big difference, or if you wouldnt even notice with a little bit of tweaking.

[spikey]

I would get both. Why? Well money issues aside for a moment, It takes time to learn both and use both with proficiency. You can not compare the two units unless they are side by side, and then one will most likely be better at some things and vice-versa. I have a Kemper and a Helix and the same is true for them. But both sound good, with one sounding better at some sounds and again, vice versa. The Helix for example has more options for being the "center" of your guitar driven studio. The Kemper by now has profiled nearly every amp out there. Not all the profiles are good, but many are and they out-number what Helix has available. So you see, there are pros and cons ( depending on how you look at it) of both boxes. But again, no one box will work well for you unless you spend time learning how to use it, from information available here and elsewhere like YouTube for example. Hope this helps a bit. ; )

[DunedinDragon]

Modeling is modeling...it's math and calculations.  Everything beyond that is simply subjective impressions and is based on belief and not fact.  The truth is there's probably FAR more difference in the tone of either system based on the output sound device you connect it to.

At this level of equipment either of them can do whatever you need it to do once you master it effectively.  No one in your audience will ever know the difference between the two, and  neither of them is going to turn you into a guitar god all by themselves, so go with whatever makes you most comfortable and get to work with it.

[willjrock]

Quote

 

so I wanted to ask, what are your experiences in the long run with the helix, especially in professional use/touring?

Right now I am a Kemper + pedalboard player as well as the Boss GT 1000, but never got quite statisfied. But having tried the helix more recently I was very happy with the sounds I got as well as the flexibility.

Since I am professionally gigging musician my question is:

Did you have any major issues, freezing, parts breaking, errors during shows, total dropouts etc.

I had a HX Stomp and a HX Effects, both times I had the bad luck of a faulty unit. Gear failure just must not happen for me.

So what are the opinions on the helix of the touring musicians out here, since the helix has been out for a few years? (Sound, reliability, build quality) :)

 

 

3 hours ago, hausi_117 said:

This topic has surely been brought up a lot of times, but how does the Helix with the current firmware 2.90 and its improvements compare (soundwise) to the axe? I am currently a Hx Stomp user (had an AX8 before, but sold it because it was frustrating to program and use) and have been very statisfied with the results I got lately and I got very close to the AX8.

 

since the fractal FM3 is coming out and I cant decide wheter to get the helix floor (for more flexibility, the stomp isnt enough for me anymore) or the the fractal, (because a lot of people praise the modelling of the axe fx 3) I wanna ask if someone has both and if there really is such a big difference, or if you wouldnt even notice with a little bit of tweaking.

 

[phil_m]

Well, I have the FM3. It's a fine device, and it sounds good. I'd say the same thing about the Helix. I did own the Fractal AX8 briefly, but I really didn't give it much of a chance. I couldn't make heads or tails of the hardware apart from the editor. The FM3 is a little better in that respect, but still not great. UI isn't Fractal's strong suit, for sure. I know people rave about Fractal's editors, but I think FM3 Edit is rather clunky and slow, too. There are just too many freaking tabs and knobs. The thing is, there are some people who love that about it. So it depends on what type of person you are.

 

To me, the design intent behind each device is so different, that even though they're both modelers, they're really in different universes. The Helix is the first multi-FX that makes me feel like I'm playing with real pedals. Not in the sense that everything is exactly the same, but in the fact that changing stuff is immediate, and turning knobs and changing parameters is a very interactive thing. I don't get that feeling with other modelers.

 

To me, the thing that is nice about the FM3 is that there's a level of curation as far as the IRs that are paired with each amp model. It's different than Line 6's approach. Line 6 is very much about giving you a blank slate.  Fractal seem to pick IRs that highlight certain qualities in the amp models. The other thing that's kind of cool with the FM3 is that multi-function switching. You can do a lot with the three footswitches. However, it's also kind of annoying after awhile. It seems that whatever you want to do on the FM3, you have to hold down a footswitch to get the next view. If I really wanted to use the FM3 live, I'd probably want the FC6 to go along with it. That's another $500, though.

[bypassvalve]

Axe Fx amps are better, at the cost off having to know how to actually dial them in. Helix amps are hard to make a bad sound with, AFX3 is very easy to make a bad sound. If fractal amps are 100% real, helix amps are 95% real, just with helix it's always there when you turn it on, no matter what you do. AFX3 has a huge learning curve, especially if you aren't familiar with the amp model you're dialing in and how it behaves in real life.

 

Helix cab block is way better with mics and distance and reflections, there is no fractal equivalent, only factory and user IRs. Fractal can play very long IRs though, it adds realism, but only regarding negligible low end and early reflections, nothing you can't synthesize and tune with micro delays. 

 

Fractal effects sound good, but only in the way of fidelity. Fractal doesn't gaf about emulating specific devices, save a very few select units. Especially the delays, fractal delays are half assed bulllollipop...none of them are actual bucket brigade algorithms, or analog, there is only ONE pitch shifting algorithm (where delay time alters feedback pitch), and that's the so called "tape" algorithm. It isn't tape at all, it's just digital delay, with user adjustable generic distortion and repeat equalization. Modulation effects recently got updated, but you will not get "the sound" of a device, you only get the "type" of sound those devices make, that you can then tune to preference. It's fun to tweak, but not as much fun as turning it on, loading a CE-1 and Memory Man block and having them ACTUALLY SOUND like they are supposed to, you will never ever ever get that with FAS effects. You get lots of horsepower and lots of capability with way too much frustration to make it worth it, if you just want to browse gear and jam. What you do get with FAS is all of two hundred something ACTUAL amplifiers, component by component actual recreations of the hardware, with obscene amounts of tweakability into the inner workings of the preamp and power amp. Using it as a preamp into a tube power amp, the preamps of all of the models are indistinguishable from the real things, like "holy lollipop, i now have ALL OF THE AMPLIFIERS". You get all of that for $2k, plus a boatload of LFOs and envelopes and pitch tracking that tracks better than the NSA. 

[hausi_117]

9 hours ago, spikey said:

I would get both. Why? Well money issues aside for a moment, It takes time to learn both and use both with proficiency. You can not compare the two units unless they are side by side, and then one will most likely be better at some things and vice-versa. I have a Kemper and a Helix and the same is true for them. But both sound good, with one sounding better at some sounds and again, vice versa. The Helix for example has more options for being the "center" of your guitar driven studio. The Kemper by now has profiled nearly every amp out there. Not all the profiles are good, but many are and they out-number what Helix has available. So you see, there are pros and cons ( depending on how you look at it) of both boxes. But again, no one box will work well for you unless you spend time learning how to use it, from information available here and elsewhere like YouTube for example. Hope this helps a bit. ; )

 

thank you very much! I also made that experience, I also have a kemper and there are situation where one shines more as the other. Right now I am more looking for a live touring setup (when we hopefully get to play gigs again). Just getting both to try them out will the way to go I guess.

 

6 hours ago, willjrock said:

 

 

 

as you can see I went through a lot of gear haha .. while I got the sounds I like out of all of them it were most of the time usability issues, that kept me for keeping them for live use. I somehow always came back to the helix when looking for an all in one, flexible live setup, that must be a sign haha. As you may have read, I now have a hx stomp again. In my older post I described that I had faulty units. This problem has been solved, both times I got them right after release with the first batch and had bad luck. Have the stomp for a year now without any problems.

 

6 hours ago, phil_m said:

Well, I have the FM3. It's a fine device, and it sounds good. I'd say the same thing about the Helix. I did own the Fractal AX8 briefly, but I really didn't give it much of a chance. I couldn't make heads or tails of the hardware apart from the editor. The FM3 is a little better in that respect, but still not great. UI isn't Fractal's strong suit, for sure. I know people rave about Fractal's editors, but I think FM3 Edit is rather clunky and slow, too. There are just too many freaking tabs and knobs. The thing is, there are some people who love that about it. So it depends on what type of person you are.

 

To me, the design intent behind each device is so different, that even though they're both modelers, they're really in different universes. The Helix is the first multi-FX that makes me feel like I'm playing with real pedals. Not in the sense that everything is exactly the same, but in the fact that changing stuff is immediate, and turning knobs and changing parameters is a very interactive thing. I don't get that feeling with other modelers.

 

To me, the thing that is nice about the FM3 is that there's a level of curation as far as the IRs that are paired with each amp model. It's different than Line 6's approach. Line 6 is very much about giving you a blank slate.  Fractal seem to pick IRs that highlight certain qualities in the amp models. The other thing that's kind of cool with the FM3 is that multi-function switching. You can do a lot with the three footswitches. However, it's also kind of annoying after awhile. It seems that whatever you want to do on the FM3, you have to hold down a footswitch to get the next view. If I really wanted to use the FM3 live, I'd probably want the FC6 to go along with it. That's another $500, though.

 

thanks for your help! these are also the main concerns I have with the fm3. The fact the helix seems more immediate and like touching the "real" pedals is a big pro for me. On the hx stomp its the first time I have fun building patches, where as on the other modellers it felt like work.

 

5 hours ago, bypassvalve said:

Axe Fx amps are better, at the cost off having to know how to actually dial them in. Helix amps are hard to make a bad sound with, AFX3 is very easy to make a bad sound. If fractal amps are 100% real, helix amps are 95% real, just with helix it's always there when you turn it on, no matter what you do. AFX3 has a huge learning curve, especially if you aren't familiar with the amp model you're dialing in and how it behaves in real life.

 

Helix cab block is way better with mics and distance and reflections, there is no fractal equivalent, only factory and user IRs. Fractal can play very long IRs though, it adds realism, but only regarding negligible low end and early reflections, nothing you can't synthesize and tune with micro delays. 

 

Fractal effects sound good, but only in the way of fidelity. Fractal doesn't gaf about emulating specific devices, save a very few select units. Especially the delays, fractal delays are half assed bulllollipop...none of them are actual bucket brigade algorithms, or analog, there is only ONE pitch shifting algorithm (where delay time alters feedback pitch), and that's the so called "tape" algorithm. It isn't tape at all, it's just digital delay, with user adjustable generic distortion and repeat equalization. Modulation effects recently got updated, but you will not get "the sound" of a device, you only get the "type" of sound those devices make, that you can then tune to preference. It's fun to tweak, but not as much fun as turning it on, loading a CE-1 and Memory Man block and having them ACTUALLY SOUND like they are supposed to, you will never ever ever get that with FAS effects. You get lots of horsepower and lots of capability with way too much frustration to make it worth it, if you just want to browse gear and jam. What you do get with FAS is all of two hundred something ACTUAL amplifiers, component by component actual recreations of the hardware, with obscene amounts of tweakability into the inner workings of the preamp and power amp. Using it as a preamp into a tube power amp, the preamps of all of the models are indistinguishable from the real things, like "holy lollipop, i now have ALL OF THE AMPLIFIERS". You get all of that for $2k, plus a boatload of LFOs and envelopes and pitch tracking that tracks better than the NSA. 

 

thank you for your reply! yeah these are also the problems I ran into when I had the AX8.

 

I really love this forum, so much great advice, thank you all! I think the helix is the better option for me, maybe I'll get a chance to try the axe, but otherwise I will go for helix.

[Heavyville]

15 hours ago, bypassvalve said:

 If fractal amps are 100% real, helix amps are 95% real,

 

this is 100% false.  Both are 100% real. 

 

[karlic]

19 hours ago, Heavyville said:

 

this is 100% false.  Both are 100% real. 

 

I'm not sure either are 100% and also the Kemper method for that matter. Getting a consistent sound from a real amp is a moving target and it never sounds the same each time I set one up.

 

Modellers are the idea of what an amp sounds like from the perspective of a few people. I'm not sure I even care whether they sound exactly like the real thing. In some cases it is a better sound for both live and recording. Models like Badonk don't even exist in real world hardware.

[Heavyville]

2 hours ago, karlic said:

I'm not sure either are 100% and also the Kemper method for that matter. Getting a consistent sound is a moving target and it never sounds the same each time I set one up.

 

Modellers are the idea of what an amp sounds like from the perspective of a few people. I'm not sure I even care whether they sound exactly like the real thing. In some cases it is a better sound for both live and recording. Models like Badonk don't even exist in real world hardware.

 

 

 

If a sound wave is generated, it's a very real thing.   Anything after that is hogwash fanboi marketing.  Hook line and sinker.

there is zero proof or real evidence to correspond that any of these devices are better than the other.    I'd argue they'll find the mighty big foot first.  

 

100001110101 

 

[karlic]

50 minutes ago, Heavyville said:

 

 

 

If a sound wave is generated, it's a very real thing.   Anything after that is hogwash fanboi marketing.  Hook line and sinker.

there is zero proof or real evidence to correspond that any of these devices are better than the other.    I'd argue they'll find the mighty big foot first.  

 

100001110101 

 

Couldn't have put it better! The differences are in the interface and the way you work as an individual.

[cruisinon2]

1 hour ago, Heavyville said:

I'd argue they'll find the mighty big foot first. 

 

 

Been in and out of the backcountry my whole life. After dark I've heard some weird $hit off in the distance over the years... sometimes not so distant. Never seen one, but Squatch is out there...;)

[Ilya-V]

Two completely different modeling technologies.

 

AxeFx uses SPICE schematic modeling which might not be exactly accurate as the real amp even though all components in the schematic are drawn according to the schematic.

 

Helix team measures each gain stage in a REAL AMP and get frequency response in each node of the REAL AMP they model, and only then model the behavior of each node digitally, thus creating an almost identical digital representation of the real amp they used.

This behavior modeling includes all the knobs and complex relationships from input to speaker, (negative feedback. impedance curve, power and output transformers, etc..).

 

If you think AxeFx is more accurate you are wrong.

Helix amp models are fundamentally more accurate as explained above.

 

[spikey]

4 hours ago, karlic said:

Modellers are the idea of what an amp sounds like from the perspective of a few people.

1 hour ago, Heavyville said:

If a sound wave is generated, it's a very real thing.   Anything after that is hogwash fanboi marketing.  Hook line and sinker.

 

Yet millions of folks can't hear the differences between a modeler's sound and the real thing these days. ; )

 

They've come a long way since the bean.

 

 

And there are many other video's out there where people made a sound guess and "got it wrong". Moral of the story "for me" is, if it sounds good (no matter which Modeler your in love with) then that's good enough. Spank the plank!

[MartinDorr]

A fair amount of what we think hearing is actually generated in our brains based on context and individual ‘knowledge’. That is not to say it’s real. There is ample evidence that placebos work to some degree for some people. I think there is no reason to believe our hearing ability is more real than feeling a recovery from sickness after taking a placebo.

[cruisinon2]

Who knew the quarantine would crank out so many philosophers?  ;)

[Heavyville]

58 minutes ago, MartinDorr said:

A fair amount of what we think hearing is actually generated in our brains based on context and individual ‘knowledge’. That is not to say it’s real. There is ample evidence that placebos work to some degree for some people. I think there is no reason to believe our hearing ability is more real than feeling a recovery from sickness after taking a placebo.

 

that's jack handy deep!

[vstrattomusic]

Axe FX III sounds better most likely, Helix is more accessible

[bypassvalve]

Axe Fx *can sound better. There are some amps coming out of this helix stomp, even using the built in cab block that are blowing my phuqin mind. Cali Texas 1/2, Cali IV, Revv Purple, Supro...

 

The o n l y thing holding back helix in terms of tonal fidelity right now is IR length, and as far as I understand it that's strictly a horsepower constraint. 

 

Another thing is the guitar input impedance setting. I always thought that was some patented FAS wizardry, was surprised as hell to find it in the helix stomp. The difference between AFX3 and Helix? HELIX ACTUALLY WORKS. With a chorus block in front and it set on auto, you lose all the high end chime. Like you would expect plugging into a pedal. Turn input impedance to 1M and you get all the chime back, like plugging into an amp. AFX3 doesn't do a thing when you change it, it's supposed to be dependant on what block is first in the chain. It isn't. Half the time it doesn't do a thing. I thought it was just too subtle a change to notice the difference. LOL nope. Getting to hear it actuality work, it sounds exactly as you would expect it to sound. I can't wait till there is something worked out horsepower wise to handle hi-fidelity cabinet and power amp impedance interaction, then you'll be left with strictly UI differences...no contest. I haven't had this much fun playing guitar in years, way late to helix land but so far zero frustration, zero disappointment. Running into greyed-out effects from running out of DSP is legit causing creative inspiration to craft effect chains that compensate... if you take off the output comp you can fit a reverb, if you use two amps and one cab you can fit more effects, if one amp is just crystal clean you can use just preamp and fit more stuff, if you can't fit a chorus but you can fit a delay you can put it on parallel path and run it at micro second time to use the modulation in it. It's so much fun. Plus it doubles as a mini space heater. 

[qwerty42]

16 minutes ago, bypassvalve said:

Axe Fx *can sound better. There are some amps coming out of this helix stomp, even using the built in cab block that are blowing my phuqin mind. Cali Texas 1/2, Cali IV, Revv Purple, Supro...

 

The o n l y thing holding back helix in terms of tonal fidelity right now is IR length, and as far as I understand it that's strictly a horsepower constraint. 

 

Another thing is the guitar input impedance setting. I always thought that was some patented FAS wizardry, was surprised as hell to find it in the helix stomp. The difference between AFX3 and Helix? HELIX ACTUALLY WORKS. With a chorus block in front and it set on auto, you lose all the high end chime. Like you would expect plugging into a pedal. Turn input impedance to 1M and you get all the chime back, like plugging into an amp. AFX3 doesn't do a thing when you change it, it's supposed to be dependant on what block is first in the chain. It isn't. Half the time it doesn't do a thing. I thought it was just too subtle a change to notice the difference. LOL nope. Getting to hear it actuality work, it sounds exactly as you would expect it to sound. I can't wait till there is something worked out horsepower wise to handle hi-fidelity cabinet and power amp impedance interaction, then you'll be left with strictly UI differences...no contest. I haven't had this much fun playing guitar in years, way late to helix land but so far zero frustration, zero disappointment. Running into greyed-out effects from running out of DSP is legit causing creative inspiration to craft effect chains that compensate... if you take off the output comp you can fit a reverb, if you use two amps and one cab you can fit more effects, if one amp is just crystal clean you can use just preamp and fit more stuff, if you can't fit a chorus but you can fit a delay you can put it on parallel path and run it at micro second time to use the modulation in it. It's so much fun. Plus it doubles as a mini space heater. 

If you love the Stomp that much, the full size Helix floor would probably be your favorite purchase of all time, assuming you don’t mind the size. The Stomp is super cool and incredibly compact, but with everything I do with my Floor unit I’d be sad to lose the extra DSP and all the I/O and switches. Hands down one of my best major purchases in years, I love it! Not to take away anything from the Stomp, I’m just planting seeds in your brain ;)

[spikey]

 

47 minutes ago, qwerty42 said:

Not to take away anything from the Stomp, I’m just planting seeds in your brain ;)

 

As long as those seeds are paid for with our own money for our own pleasures, I say water them babes... ; )

[bypassvalve]

3 hours ago, qwerty42 said:

The Stomp is super cool and incredibly compact, but with everything I do with my Floor unit I’d be sad to lose the extra DSP and all the I/O and switches.

 

Thinking about having those 12 capacitive switches with assignable midi CC capability are what's giving me a fit right now, being able to just lay a finger on one to assign it, touch two to swap them, layer 3+ different assignments to one switch without diving into a single menu, assign multiple specific arbitrary parameter changes to a single switch, momentary or latching, layered min/max and inverted and/or both. 

 

And then imagining what you could do with a looper and an Octatrack and a Digitakt and a Digitone midi chained into it, 12 switches worth of start/stop pattern select, bank up/down to control the groove box orchestra...being able select a guitar preset, then (hopefully) change switch layouts leaving maybe a few switches to do effects, (hopefully) being able to change the switch layout while on the same preset to leave like 9 switches worth of stacked and layered midi commands to drive and manipulate the rest of the midi gear, while you sing and play and whatever. It's so many switches, and so easy to program when they're capacitive like that. If only the boss ES-8 had capacitive functionality, it's so ridiculously fast and intuitive to layout buttons for what you want to do, and then change it all up and swap it around in an instant if you want. 

 

 

[Ilya-V]

Another big thing I have to mention with Helix modeling is the power amp controls (Master Volume, Presense, Resonance) behave like on the real amp they modeled, while on the Axe-Fx they are tweaked to be more "ear-pleasing" and might not represent the real amp.

Especially the Master Volume and Presence controls.

 

Most real power amps already distorting at master volume of 2-3 as on the Helix,, while on the Axe-Fx 3 the the power amp is still clean at 5.

That's one of the biggest differences people hear between the two.

Try a Master Volume setting of 1.5-2 on the Helix to be equal to AxeFx on 5,, especially with high gain amps.

 

As I already said,, the Helix uses a modeling behavior technology which measured from the real amps and represents them much more accurately than the AxeFx which is approximated from the schematics.

[qwerty42]

6 hours ago, bypassvalve said:

 

Thinking about having those 12 capacitive switches with assignable midi CC capability are what's giving me a fit right now, being able to just lay a finger on one to assign it, touch two to swap them, layer 3+ different assignments to one switch without diving into a single menu, assign multiple specific arbitrary parameter changes to a single switch, momentary or latching, layered min/max and inverted and/or both. 

 

And then imagining what you could do with a looper and an Octatrack and a Digitakt and a Digitone midi chained into it, 12 switches worth of start/stop pattern select, bank up/down to control the groove box orchestra...being able select a guitar preset, then (hopefully) change switch layouts leaving maybe a few switches to do effects, (hopefully) being able to change the switch layout while on the same preset to leave like 9 switches worth of stacked and layered midi commands to drive and manipulate the rest of the midi gear, while you sing and play and whatever. It's so many switches, and so easy to program when they're capacitive like that. If only the boss ES-8 had capacitive functionality, it's so ridiculously fast and intuitive to layout buttons for what you want to do, and then change it all up and swap it around in an instant if you want. 

 

 

I mean, I'm not gonna tell you to do it, but... do it. Just do it.

[bypassvalve]

Helix stomp is blowing my mind, condenser microphones at 9 inches changing phase to find the sweet spot just like when you actually move a mic back, rectifier preamp that actually breaks up like it's supposed to even on the lower edges of the gain pot. Helix stomp is also giving me the smell and feel of burning electronics, I don't know what else to ask for. It gets so hot, it gives off energy, just like a toasty tube amp. I keep waiting for it to die. It won't die. The only glitch I can make it do is headroom all the way down on the delays and it will clip out (digital clipping at my speakers, overtly converter noise, not repeat distortion) or letting one of the G verbs run off into infinity, eventually it just implodes and kills signal completely, dead silence. Turn decay back down from 100 and it's gtg again

[bypassvalve]

1 hour ago, qwerty42 said:

I mean, I'm not gonna tell you to do it, but... do it. Just do it.

 

I don't know about putting 1700 down on 5 year old hardware, there has to be an update in the works, this stomp sounds amazing, I'd almost rather just run 2 stomps together with 4 cable method into each other like two lesbians than buy that big honkin thing. IT'S SO BIG. Put those 12 switches and scribble strips into a chassis the size of an ES-5, then I'd control the rack with that. Helix floor is like a battle shield. Does it get hot too? The smell is so cathartic

[bypassvalve]

On 5/13/2020 at 6:59 PM, bypassvalve said:

Another thing is the guitar input impedance setting. I always thought that was some patented FAS wizardry, was surprised as hell to find it in the helix stomp. The difference between AFX3 and Helix? HELIX ACTUALLY WORKS.

 

If you have impedance set on auto and you have two amps in a patch, you get the little microscopic hiccup of it changing over when you switch amps. If it's set on 1M, there's no hiccup because it doesn't change anything, there is not one sample left out of the audio continuity when switching over, jamaican electron 1:1. I'm in love. 

[brue58ski]

On 5/11/2020 at 2:23 PM, hausi_117 said:

This topic has surely been brought up a lot of times, but how does the Helix with the current firmware 2.90 and its improvements compare (soundwise) to the axe? I am currently a Hx Stomp user (had an AX8 before, but sold it because it was frustrating to program and use) and have been very statisfied with the results I got lately and I got very close to the AX8.

 

since the fractal FM3 is coming out and I cant decide wheter to get the helix floor (for more flexibility, the stomp isnt enough for me anymore) or the the fractal, (because a lot of people praise the modelling of the axe fx 3) I wanna ask if someone has both and if there really is such a big difference, or if you wouldnt even notice with a little bit of tweaking.

 

Most people say the Fractal sounds slightly better. Many people say you can get the Helix to sound just as good. Does the Fractal sound better? As we all know, a lot of this is opinion but if it is better, in my opinion it is not $400 better. I liked Ilya's comments a lot about how they each model amps. Makes me like my Helix even more than I already do.

[tahiche]

On 5/14/2020 at 1:51 PM, bypassvalve said:

 

I don't know about putting 1700 down on 5 year old hardware, there has to be an update in the works, this stomp sounds amazing, I'd almost rather just run 2 stomps together with 4 cable method into each other like two lesbians than buy that big honkin thing. IT'S SO BIG. Put those 12 switches and scribble strips into a chassis the size of an ES-5, then I'd control the rack with that. Helix floor is like a battle shield. Does it get hot too? The smell is so cathartic

it is huge. That’s a big downer for me, specially if you can’t leave it on the floor (where it should be) cos your place is small. I was thinking of trading it for a Stomp, but I do wanna explore the midi controls, which the stomp lacks. I own a digitakt and it seems like it could be a lot of fun and inspiring. But it’s so big it feels kind of stupid in my bedroom. It made sense at the practice space.

[bypassvalve]

Project manager said a couple weeks ago that the end of life discussion about the hardware has never even come up yet, it's probably going to be a few more years on that chassis. And 3.0 will be getting command center and favorites, so midi control on the stomp, plus who knows what else is in the works, I think some different looper functionality too

[mrkphpps]

If you want my advice - stop wasting time - get either one, and start playing guitar...

I'm sure they are both brilliant - but my money is in a Helix - the user interface makes it so easy to use.

[spikey]

On 5/14/2020 at 6:51 AM, bypassvalve said:

I don't know about putting 1700 down on 5 year old hardware

 

OTOH, being new doesnt always mean its better. I have a 22 year old Les Paul standard Id put up tonewise with any of the new ones today. ; )

[bypassvalve]

On 5/13/2020 at 8:59 AM, Ilya-V said:

This behavior modeling includes all the knobs and complex relationships from input to speaker, (negative feedback. impedance curve, power and output transformers, etc..).

 

Do you happen to know if the helix cab block currently interacts with the power amp output impedance at all? In November FAS finally made available some selectable cabinet impedance curves for different speaker and cabinet configurations, it makes a huge difference when the speaker impedance resonance points match up with the IR you're using, it was always adjustable but without knowing where to set it, it's just guess work to preference. It probably wouldn't be needed if you only use the default cab for an amp, since they probably have the modeled speaker resonance points set for that cab, but one of my favorite things to do is run weak little amps through the recto oversized 4x12, like an AC30 or little fender...the ability to tell that little power amp output impedance that it's pushing a huge 4x12 of V30s makes it scoop like crazy and flexes the low end, just like when you plug those things into that cab in real life. That OS 4x12 cab is an acoustic instrument in its own right, like an upright bass. 

[bzaferatos]

CRAZY THIS IS. I sold my helix floor and was trying to sell my two powercabs until I got my axe fx 3. Im keeping my powercabs. they were not the problem. It was the Helix period!!!!!!!! Plugged in and found the Friedman BE and hit one chord and decided to keep the powercabs. No more fighting the frfr sound because its gone. It sounds and feels real! The presets are actually good. The amp modeling is way better period! the effects are way better period! the ability to customize the amps are light years beyond the helix. I mean, you can actually change the preamp and power amp tubes and a lot more. I can use poly effects and spillovers and set up a patch for a bass player and never worry about the cpu. with helix after picking out your dirty amp youre lucky if you can get the clean amp you realy want or overdrive etc. Especially with poly effects or not being able to use your 2nd path if you choose spillovers. in a recording on you tube you might get close tone wise but in person with you rig beside you........NO WAY!!!!!!! Its not gonna happen. i also have the fc-12 pedal board. yes it was expensive but if you picked one up you would see why. Its built better than the helix. its a TANK. YES THIS IS JUST MY OPINION. DONT TAKE IT FROM ME. ASK METTALICA, DEF LEPPARD OR STEVE VIA. these guys can afford anything they want but have chosen the Axe FX 3. Go to fractal and check out the artist page. Theres a reason the pros use the fractal unit. Notice the same guys on both sites. I promise they dont actually use helix anymore if they ever did. ITS SIMPLY TIME FOR LINE 6 TO PUT OUT A NEWER AND BETTER UNIT ESPECIALLY WITH THE QUAD CORTEX ON ITS WAY.  WHICH BY THE WAY PETE THORN SEEMED TO LOVE IT BESIDES THE AMP MODELING AND THE FACT THAT NEURAL NEEDED IT BACK FOR REPAIRS. YOUCANT MAKE THIS UP. The FRACTAL FX III is the best and most powerful unit there is period. Has nothing to do with taste ot preference.......ITS JUST A FACT.......................AT LEAST FOR NOW.

[phil_m]

2 hours ago, bzaferatos said:

CRAZY THIS IS. I sold my helix floor and was trying to sell my two powercabs until I got my axe fx 3. Im keeping my powercabs. they were not the problem. It was the Helix period!!!!!!!! Plugged in and found the Friedman BE and hit one chord and decided to keep the powercabs. No more fighting the frfr sound because its gone. It sounds and feels real! The presets are actually good. The amp modeling is way better period! the effects are way better period! the ability to customize the amps are light years beyond the helix. I mean, you can actually change the preamp and power amp tubes and a lot more. I can use poly effects and spillovers and set up a patch for a bass player and never worry about the cpu. with helix after picking out your dirty amp youre lucky if you can get the clean amp you realy want or overdrive etc. Especially with poly effects or not being able to use your 2nd path if you choose spillovers. in a recording on you tube you might get close tone wise but in person with you rig beside you........NO WAY!!!!!!! Its not gonna happen. i also have the fc-12 pedal board. yes it was expensive but if you picked one up you would see why. Its built better than the helix. its a TANK. YES THIS IS JUST MY OPINION. DONT TAKE IT FROM ME. ASK METTALICA, DEF LEPPARD OR STEVE VIA. these guys can afford anything they want but have chosen the Axe FX 3. Go to fractal and check out the artist page. Theres a reason the pros use the fractal unit. Notice the same guys on both sites. I promise they dont actually use helix anymore if they ever did. ITS SIMPLY TIME FOR LINE 6 TO PUT OUT A NEWER AND BETTER UNIT ESPECIALLY WITH THE QUAD CORTEX ON ITS WAY.  WHICH BY THE WAY PETE THORN SEEMED TO LOVE IT BESIDES THE AMP MODELING AND THE FACT THAT NEURAL NEEDED IT BACK FOR REPAIRS. YOUCANT MAKE THIS UP. The FRACTAL FX III is the best and most powerful unit there is period. Has nothing to do with taste ot preference.......ITS JUST A FACT.......................AT LEAST FOR NOW.

Cliff, how many times do we have to tell you to stop posting here?!

[brue58ski]

5 hours ago, bzaferatos said:

CRAZY THIS IS. I sold my helix floor and was trying to sell my two powercabs until I got my axe fx 3. Im keeping my powercabs. they were not the problem. It was the Helix period!!!!!!!! Plugged in and found the Friedman BE and hit one chord and decided to keep the powercabs. No more fighting the frfr sound because its gone. It sounds and feels real! The presets are actually good. The amp modeling is way better period! the effects are way better period! the ability to customize the amps are light years beyond the helix. I mean, you can actually change the preamp and power amp tubes and a lot more. I can use poly effects and spillovers and set up a patch for a bass player and never worry about the cpu. with helix after picking out your dirty amp youre lucky if you can get the clean amp you realy want or overdrive etc. Especially with poly effects or not being able to use your 2nd path if you choose spillovers. in a recording on you tube you might get close tone wise but in person with you rig beside you........NO WAY!!!!!!! Its not gonna happen. i also have the fc-12 pedal board. yes it was expensive but if you picked one up you would see why. Its built better than the helix. its a TANK. YES THIS IS JUST MY OPINION. DONT TAKE IT FROM ME. ASK METTALICA, DEF LEPPARD OR STEVE VIA. these guys can afford anything they want but have chosen the Axe FX 3. Go to fractal and check out the artist page. Theres a reason the pros use the fractal unit. Notice the same guys on both sites. I promise they dont actually use helix anymore if they ever did. ITS SIMPLY TIME FOR LINE 6 TO PUT OUT A NEWER AND BETTER UNIT ESPECIALLY WITH THE QUAD CORTEX ON ITS WAY.  WHICH BY THE WAY PETE THORN SEEMED TO LOVE IT BESIDES THE AMP MODELING AND THE FACT THAT NEURAL NEEDED IT BACK FOR REPAIRS. YOUCANT MAKE THIS UP. The FRACTAL FX III is the best and most powerful unit there is period. Has nothing to do with taste ot preference.......ITS JUST A FACT.......................AT LEAST FOR NOW.

 

So you've had your Helix for awhile and your first post on here is to let us know you replaced it with an AXE FX 3? Your first post on a Helix forum is to let us know you like the AXE FX 3 better? Well gee golly whillickers, thanks for the info. It was really really really really helpful. And now that I know that Metallica, Def Leppard and Steve Vai, oh, excuse me,  METTALICA (sp.), DEF LEPPARD OR STEVE VIA (sp.) bought the AXE FX as well, I guess I'd better get one too. I remember thinking as I made my helix purchase, "gee I hope METTALICA (sp.), DEF LEPPARD OR STEVE VIA (sp.) use the Helix" before I got one. Yup, you really showed all of us Helix users the truth now. And I'm sure your expertly worded first Helix post will send legions of Helix users into ex Helix user land. What a relief you are here to show us the error of our ways. Of course the fact this is your first and, so far, only post in no way indicates you're just a nasty old troll. No no no no no...........Not at all. And let's not forget that despite owning three Line 6 products, you have only registered one in your name. Is it the Helix you got rid of or just one of the power cabs? You are so clever.

[rosskoss]

Contrary to some of the above posts, I'm actually convinced that Line6 has the most accurate modeling (both in terms of modeling process and in terms of component / system model accuracy)

 

I say this from personal experience playing some of the actual amps (please note, I don't use FRFR, cab simulation, IR etc. and run into SS Power amp into actual guitar cab). With this setup -  it is unbelievable how accurate the tone AND feel is. 

 

My experience is born out in many videos online as well. Here's a recent one - Kemper vs Fractal FM3 vs Helix vs Mooer GE 300 vs HeadRush: which is the best modeler of a SOLDANO? - YouTube

 

I'm actually not in favor of approach that NDSP Quad Cortex is employing - i.e. using neural nets etc. This to me, is the 'easy way out' - you can make a neural net do almost anything with the right neural net architecture. 

 

Line6 (and Fractal) on the other hand do component modeling (by and large) which is physics based. In the future I do expect neural nets to become more prevalent either as the base approach or as augmentation to physics based modeling. However, I always believe that you should start with actual physics-based modeling as the foundation for a truly sound model (I believe Neural also has component modeling on the non-profiled models). Where possible, I prefer to strive to improve the physics based model as that reflects the true working of the amp before employing any other techniques to minimize the overall error.

 

Now, the fractal does give you a more 'polished sound' (courtesy the beautiful reverbs etc. on the Fractal units)...but that doesn't mean that it's a more accurate sound in terms of amp modeling. Everyone is really close to each other now. 

[PierM]

6 hours ago, bzaferatos said:

CRAZY THIS IS. I sold my helix floor and was trying to sell my two powercabs until I got my axe fx 3. Im keeping my powercabs. they were not the problem. It was the Helix period!!!!!!!! Plugged in and found the Friedman BE and hit one chord and decided to keep the powercabs. No more fighting the frfr sound because its gone. It sounds and feels real! The presets are actually good. The amp modeling is way better period! the effects are way better period! the ability to customize the amps are light years beyond the helix. I mean, you can actually change the preamp and power amp tubes and a lot more. I can use poly effects and spillovers and set up a patch for a bass player and never worry about the cpu. with helix after picking out your dirty amp youre lucky if you can get the clean amp you realy want or overdrive etc. Especially with poly effects or not being able to use your 2nd path if you choose spillovers. in a recording on you tube you might get close tone wise but in person with you rig beside you........NO WAY!!!!!!! Its not gonna happen. i also have the fc-12 pedal board. yes it was expensive but if you picked one up you would see why. Its built better than the helix. its a TANK. YES THIS IS JUST MY OPINION. DONT TAKE IT FROM ME. ASK METTALICA, DEF LEPPARD OR STEVE VIA. these guys can afford anything they want but have chosen the Axe FX 3. Go to fractal and check out the artist page. Theres a reason the pros use the fractal unit. Notice the same guys on both sites. I promise they dont actually use helix anymore if they ever did. ITS SIMPLY TIME FOR LINE 6 TO PUT OUT A NEWER AND BETTER UNIT ESPECIALLY WITH THE QUAD CORTEX ON ITS WAY.  WHICH BY THE WAY PETE THORN SEEMED TO LOVE IT BESIDES THE AMP MODELING AND THE FACT THAT NEURAL NEEDED IT BACK FOR REPAIRS. YOUCANT MAKE THIS UP. The FRACTAL FX III is the best and most powerful unit there is period. Has nothing to do with taste ot preference.......ITS JUST A FACT.......................AT LEAST FOR NOW.

 

Got your period?

[cruisinon2]

7 hours ago, bzaferatos said:

CRAZY THIS IS. I sold my helix floor and was trying to sell my two powercabs until I got my axe fx 3. Im keeping my powercabs. they were not the problem. It was the Helix period!!!!!!!! Plugged in and found the Friedman BE and hit one chord and decided to keep the powercabs. No more fighting the frfr sound because its gone. It sounds and feels real! The presets are actually good. The amp modeling is way better period! the effects are way better period! the ability to customize the amps are light years beyond the helix. I mean, you can actually change the preamp and power amp tubes and a lot more. I can use poly effects and spillovers and set up a patch for a bass player and never worry about the cpu. with helix after picking out your dirty amp youre lucky if you can get the clean amp you realy want or overdrive etc. Especially with poly effects or not being able to use your 2nd path if you choose spillovers. in a recording on you tube you might get close tone wise but in person with you rig beside you........NO WAY!!!!!!! Its not gonna happen. i also have the fc-12 pedal board. yes it was expensive but if you picked one up you would see why. Its built better than the helix. its a TANK. YES THIS IS JUST MY OPINION. DONT TAKE IT FROM ME. ASK METTALICA, DEF LEPPARD OR STEVE VIA. these guys can afford anything they want but have chosen the Axe FX 3. Go to fractal and check out the artist page. Theres a reason the pros use the fractal unit. Notice the same guys on both sites. I promise they dont actually use helix anymore if they ever did. ITS SIMPLY TIME FOR LINE 6 TO PUT OUT A NEWER AND BETTER UNIT ESPECIALLY WITH THE QUAD CORTEX ON ITS WAY.  WHICH BY THE WAY PETE THORN SEEMED TO LOVE IT BESIDES THE AMP MODELING AND THE FACT THAT NEURAL NEEDED IT BACK FOR REPAIRS. YOUCANT MAKE THIS UP. The FRACTAL FX III is the best and most powerful unit there is period. Has nothing to do with taste ot preference.......ITS JUST A FACT.......................AT LEAST FOR NOW.

 

Don't think I've ever needed that many words to convince myself that my money was well spent, lol...hope that took some of the sting out of the Fractal price tag for ya...

 

Ladies and gentlemen, the FACT bus has left the building. Bon voyáge!

[phil_m]