Reasons Why I Returned My Helix

[ScottAyers]

As I said earlier in this thread.

I will not respond to trolls. Which Peter clearly is.

 

For anyone that wants know if I'm being truthful or being a troll myself.

All you have to do is go to the top of the Helix forum and enter the word "muddy" into the search field. It's currently returning two pages of threads.

 

I'm not interested in hearing the mindless ramblings of users that love the Helix. Yet can't even figure out how to use a simple forum search option.

I'm only here to tell Line 6 specifically why I returned it. And ask for them to address them in the next one.

If anyone want's to tell me how wrong I am. Don't bother...I will not reply to you.

 

I'm a little surprised that people were behaving themselves for two pages. But it looks like the trolls and the fanboys have finally arrived.

To the guys in the past two pages. Thank you for being cool and open minded. And allowing me to say what I didn't like. But I think we've finally hit that inevitable point where it's just people that are trying to "Win The Internet".

It had to happen eventually.

 

 

-ScottA

 

 

 

 

-ScottA

[Smashcraaft]

Scott, how would you call the sound-samples you where offered and you can find all around here on the board?

Would you really call them mudded?

 

I respect your feeling about the unit, but nobody can tell me that all that sound-samples reaching your ear "mudded"?! 

[gkinder]

As I said earlier in this thread.

I will not respond to trolls. Which Peter clearly is.

 

For anyone that wants know if I'm being truthful or being a troll myself.

All you have to do is go to the top of the Helix forum and enter the word "muddy" into the search field. It's currently returning two pages of threads.

 

I'm not interested in hearing the mindless ramblings of users that love the Helix. Yet can't even figure out how to use a simple forum search option.

I'm only here to tell Line 6 specifically why I returned it. And ask for them to address them in the next one.

If anyone want's to tell me how wrong I am. Don't bother...I will not reply to you.

 

I'm a little surprised that people were behaving themselves for two pages. But it looks like the trolls and the fanboys have finally arrived.

To the guys in the past two pages. Thank you for being cool and open minded. And allowing me to say what I didn't like. But I think we've finally hit that inevitable point where it's just people that are trying to "Win The Internet".

It had to happen eventually.

 

 

​Think you just stepped over the line into trolldom.  Peter is obviously NOT a troll...he's a professional musician and a beta tester for Line6 and the company wouldn't put him in that position if they didn't highly value his opinion, input, and technical expertise.  You are beginning to sound like someone who delights in picking gear apart and that it wouldn't matter if you were given a Helix, Fractal, Atomic, or Kemper, you would always find something to rip apart.  To universally say the Helix is "muddy" is psycho babble, same goes for the other quality units available.  You can make anything muddy, including the best pedals running into the best tube amps and cabs available, if you don't dial them in properly.  If you didn't like the Helix and returned it, fine, no one has an issue with that, but to come onto Line6's SUPPORT forum and start taking shots at the Helix is starting to smell of trolldom at this point, especially when your claims are pretty much without merit.  Peter is correct, if YOU can't get good tones out of any of these pro level units, it isn't the gear that has the issue....

[cruisinon2]

But you do need to accept that there are people that don't. And would like to see Line 6 do something about it.

 

 

-ScottA

Here's the rub, though...This is all subjective. You like what you like, and we all purchase and use accordingly. I wouldn't have the world any other way. But what would you have L6 (or any other company for that matter) do? "Fix" Helix, to satisfy the small % of customers who didn't like it, while simultaneously alienating the majority of happy customers who think it's great? Nobody does that...it's financial suicide.

 

No one is gonna bond with every piece of gear they play, and that's fine...I've ditched so much stuff over the years, I've forgotten half of it. But not liking something doesn't imply that there's a defect in need of a "fix", either. It either works for you, or it doesn't...and both outcomes are OK. Sooner or later, we all find what we need.

[silverhead]

....

 

At this point I'm just repeating myself over and over. So I would prefer stop here.

Talking about the same things I didn't like over and over with forum members seems more like complaining, than constructive feeback.

I've said everything that I want to say about why I returned it. It's up to the company now to use my feeback, or toss it in the garbage bin.

 

It was nice chatting with you guys.

I just want to stop saying negative things at this point. Enough is enough.

 

-ScottA

I think you nailed it several days ago.  What happened to that?

 

There's not much more to be said or gained here. You have your opinion and have stated it clearly and repeatedly. Others disagree. Doesn't make anybody right, wrong, or trollish.

 

No point in continuing because nobody is going to change anyone's mind here.

[glideman]

I must like mud... Because my helix is the same "mud" I got from my:

 

Axe FX Ultra

Axe FX II XL+

Kemper Rack

Mesa Road King II head

Rebuilt blackface Fender Twin

Two custom built tube heads

Various Marshall tube heads

H&K Triamp II head

 

You can make any of them sound bad or muddy, but you can certainly get some

Holy Grail tones if you know how to tweak them and have soul and skills. Helix is the same way.

 

Agree with others, state your beef once. Multiple instances starts to go troll mode after awhile.

[archisc]

I use my Helix with L2t... just by turning the channel vol up within a patch, the "Mud" disappears... and it might sound too sharp sometimes....

 

But with some adjustments of channel vol, bias, cut low on speaker or IR... all Mud disappears while retaining great tone...

[RRMark]

That's one of the most ignorant things I've ever read.

This person just happens to be a fan of the darker, muddier tones that comes from the Helix. And has no idea that people have tastes that are different from his.

Even if I loved the tones from the Helix. I would never say something like that. Because as a grown up mature person, I know that everyone has different tastes.

Please don't ever quote this moron again. Or any other fanboys like him.

 

While there's a lot of people happy with the tones. There's also a lot of people like me that are not.

And you know what? The number of people speaking up and saying that the Helix sounds too muddy is growing every day...Start counting them people...It's not just me.

It's not an EQ problem. And it's not because we don't know how to use it. It is an actual sound characteristic of the unit that actually exists.

You either love it...or you don't. But make no mistake. It is there. It does exist. It is an actual thing.

 

All I'm asking for is for Line 6 to try to address this issue in the next version. And try to give the unit more presence and source sound when the reverbs are used.

This is what I personally require. I'm only speaking for myself. Even though I know that I'm not the only one that feel this way.

If it stays the way it is now. And you guys love it that way. Then great...enjoy it. I'll just have to find something else that caters more to my specific sound needs.

But that makes me sad, because I really liked the new UI and the hardware for the most part.

 

 

-ScottA

You could easily have written to Line 6 customer services and informed them of your opinion, but you decided to come on the forum and offer it to all forum members, which is fine.

If forum members experience is different and they wish to disagree with you that is also fine, you don't necessarily have to repeat yourself over and over, I don't believe that will change their opinion.

For forum browsers whom maybe considering a purchase, the balance of these opinions is valuable and they will draw their own conclusions.

 

You say the Helix has a certain tone that sounds dark and muddy, lacking in presence, you weren't happy that the reverb made the guitar sound distant or with the roll off with the guitar volume control. You say these things are fixed and cannot be edited.

 

I disagree with this, I think it is entirely editable. Yes it can be dark and muddy, but I have also learned how to achieve a bright clear tone. I can have the guitar lost in a sea of reverb, or have it standing clearly above the ambient backdrop. Once I have a preset sounding the way I want, rolling back the volume on my guitar produces exactly what I would expect with a good valve amp, trimming the gain and the highs.

 

You say the the Helix has a certain sound that will not suit all tastes and I believe it is versatile enough to be tweaked to suit all tastes.

 

I didn't see anywhere what equipment you are using the Helix with, which I think could be useful information to others.

 

Sorry it didn't workout for you and I hope you find what you are looking for.

[ScottAyers]

@silverhead.

 

I have been trying to leave this thread for the past two days. I've said all that I wanted to say. But people kept on asking me questions. Some of which are not about the Helix. And I was enjoying that interaction with the members until Peter came along and felt that he had to defend the Helix and call me (as well others) wrong.

Then of course the minions followed right behind him to pile on.

Such is the norm for Internet forums.

 

I'm done. I won't post anything more here. Even non Line 6 questions.

So please don't ask me anymore questions folks.

It was nice talking to you guys.

 

-ScottA

[PeterHamm]

@silverhead.

 

I have been trying to leave this thread for the past two days. I've said all that I wanted to say. But people kept on asking me questions. Some of which are not about the Helix. And I was enjoying that interaction with the members until Peter came along and felt that he had to defend the Helix and call me (as well others) wrong.

Then of course the minions followed right behind him to pile on.

Such is the norm for Internet forums.

 

I'm done. I won't post anything more here. Even non Line 6 questions.

So please don't ask me anymore questions folks.

It was nice talking to you guys.

 

-ScottA

 

Scott, I wasn't the only one that thought you were being needlessly incendiary, as you can see now. I wasn't "defending Helix" as much as differing with you that your methodology and conclusions were sound.

 

I am not a troll, I assure you.

[silverhead]

@silverhead.

 

I have been trying to leave this thread for the past two days. I've said all that I wanted to say. But people kept on asking me questions. .....

Actually, no....

 

I've just reviewed the thread from the point at which you said you were leaving. The next several posts you made were not in response to any question. You just kept participating. Nothing wrong in that, but let's not rewrite history.

 

In fact things were going along quite smoothly until you reacted strongly to RRMark's comment which you called 'ignorant' and then went on to discredit him personally. That's when things went south.

 

However it's irrelevant now because this time I know you're no longer posting.

[PeterHamm]

Y'all should know, I've had some private communication with Scott. He's not a troll, I promise you. He's a stand-up guy... So next time you see him post, just know that and give him the benefit of the doubt.

[glideman]

I'd have a beer with him whether we ever agreed or not! ðŸºðŸ˜Ž

[spikey]

Nothing wrong with Scott that losing a dollar or two wouldn't fix....  :P  IM KIDDING!

Im sure he's gonna eventually (theres that word again) buy another Helix in a year or so anyway... So yea id buy him a beer too. 

[glideman]

... and by then, spikey will have had his Helix for awhile finally.   LoL!!!

[spikey]

ya know the best I can do at this point is pester a guy that had a Helix, and returned it... That's like smelling a moist double layer thick icing chocolate cake, but ya can't take a bite...

[mileskb]

I still want to actually hear what Scott's definition of his sound is with an actual audio example.  At least something close.  Because once he stated what he thought of the tone in the "Glenn" video as fairly opposite of what it actually was...   I don't think anyone can really wrap their head around it.

 

In my professional opinion, the Helix doesn't have a tone unto itself... it sounds like however you program it to sound and with the amount of EQ and texture options, well....  I was thinking it, but didn't have the nads to post it.. but the more I work with the Helix... the more I have to agree "'If you can't get a good tone out of either one of these units, it's your fault. Plain and simple. It's not that your ears are that discerning, you just don't know what you're doing."

 

Honestly I love a challenge.  I'm still going to get a Scholz Hyperspace Effect out of this thing yet...  but I'd also like to understand what I'll refer to as ScottAyersTone and try to reproduce it..... just for fun.

[Lachdanan0121]

ya know the best I can do at this point is pester a guy that had a Helix, and returned it... That's like smelling a moist double layer thick icing chocolate cake, but ya can't take a bite...

You know I might get my head chopped off for this, but let Spikey eat cake.

lol

[willjrock]

It's not an EQ problem. The pedal just isn't hot enough for me.

Not enough presence. Not enough crispness. Not enough source sound. Not enough Drive. Or whatever adjective you choose to call it.

 

Its pretty evident to me that the OP is overestimating his abilities. Hes never really owned a "good" piece of gear, and doesnt really understand how to define his sonic shortcomings, yet he is convinced that in 14 days, he has a full understanding for a piece of gear that will take months to fully master. Sure anyone can learn how to use the quick functions, but im sure we'll all be finding new things for months to come. Somebody panicked IMO.

[Joepeggio]

Its pretty evident to me that the OP is overestimating his abilities. Hes never really owned a "good" piece of gear, and doesnt really understand how to define his sonic shortcomings, yet he is convinced that in 14 days, he has a full understanding for a piece of gear that will take months to fully master. Sure anyone can learn how to use the quick functions, but im sure we'll all be finding new things for months to come. Somebody panicked IMO.

in defense of the OP, 1500 isnt chump change. I too am very critical of things when i have to save and sacrafice for months and then not be impressed. To each his own.

 

BTW I love my Helix and find it is completely capable of solving all the OP's issues. Thankfully they will keep making them and he will have plenty of time to decide.

[Gawwuf]

This post is for those who don't own a Helix yet and may be on the line  and confused about this thread.

Scott you don't have to reply to this, I've read your posts and just as you are entitled to your opinion... so am I.

 

I own a GNX4, I used it for gigs for 2 years, initially found it hard to get really good tones til I found MFX Supermodels on line, this guy made a large amount of very usable patches which I then modified to my needs. Really liked this pedal.

 

I now own a Helix. Bottom line this thing is LIGHT YEARS ahead of the GNX4, the only problem I have found with the Helix is the number of modifying options, this is not a bad thing but dialing in the PERFECT sound if you are a tweaker can seem to take a long time between choosing AMP, CAB, MIC, MIC DISTANCE, EFFECTS etc etc etc.

 

I have found it extremely easy to get usable sounds right away, I am a constant tweaker and will keep adjusting many of them as I go, but I did this with the GNX4 as well.

 

IMHO.... to sell this thing and keep an old outdated pedal that you can only get one usable sound out of (this is not my experience) makes ZERO sense.

AND... if you cannot get one usable sound out of this device... you have no idea what you are doing.

 

This is all my opinion.

[Gawwuf]

Side note, the guitarist I've been playing with for 10 years heard mine, got one, after a couple weeks of messing with it used it at practice last night and it sounded GREAT!

[willjrock]

in defense of the OP, 1500 isnt chump change. I too am very critical of things when i have to save and sacrafice for months and then not be impressed. To each his own.

 

BTW I love my Helix and find it is completely capable of solving all the OP's issues. Thankfully they will keep making them and he will have plenty of time to decide.

No i agree man, but its just that a lot more often than not, i find people *think* they know what great sound is, or how to achieve it, but most often dont....like all the time.

 

Then there are the ones that say   "the first time i tried x product i didnt like it, but then a year later".......

 

Point is you do just show up and start trying to deterr people from buying a product because in 14 days you couldnt make it sound the way it did in the videos.

[spikey]

in defense of the OP, 1500 isnt chump change. I too am very critical of things when i have to save and sacrafice for months and then not be impressed. To each his own.

 

BTW I love my Helix and find it is completely capable of solving all the OP's issues. Thankfully they will keep making them and he will have plenty of time to decide.

Nothing wrong in getting what you pay for. But don't think you can get the same tone from a 1500.00 preamp for a nickel either. 

[silverhead]

.....

 

Point is you do just show up and start trying to deterr people from buying a product because in 14 days you couldnt make it sound the way it did in the videos.

I don't think he was trying to deter anyone. If I recall his opening post he seemed to make it clear that he was just offering feedback to Line 6. Nothing wrong with that I think.

[willjrock]

I don't think he was trying to deter anyone. If I recall his opening post he seemed to make it clear that he was just offering feedback to Line 6. Nothing wrong with that I think.

No, but it has that effect...Im over it. Everybody has an opinion. Me too.   :D  Im done.

[d0stenning]

I will not respond to trolls. Which Peter clearly is.

 You appear to be confusing or conflating someone expressing his opinion with gusto - using maybe a little rhetoric here and there - vigorously arguing for his case - with "trolling". 

 

I see so much of this kind of thing - lazily inserting the word "bigot" "xxxphobe", "troll" or some other emotive word into a sentence - as if somehow accusing a dissenter in a thread online -  accusing the person of such things will  help in the argument. 

 

It doesn't.   Debate online gets vigorous and robust sometimes. Deal with it.  Instead of lazily accusing or straw-manning people who just plain disagree with you of some kind of net-crime - or worse. 

 

Peter is a regular and very helpful contributor to this forum and elsewhere. He helps people out a lot. 

 

Now if many have bad experiences with the HELIX and want to share that here. Fine. 

 

But its just intellectually lazy to accuse a vehement dissenter with "trolling".  As if doing so somehow helps _your_ case. 

 

And no doubt *I* will now be accused of trolling, being "arrogant" ... lowering the "tone"..... 

 

Such is life... 

[PeterHamm]

 You appear to be confusing or conflating someone expressing his opinion with gusto - using maybe a little rhetoric here and there - vigorously arguing for his case - with "trolling". 

 

I see so much of this kind of thing - lazily inserting the word "bigot" "xxxphobe", "troll" or some other emotive word into a sentence - as if somehow accusing a dissenter in a thread online -  accusing the person of such things will  help in the argument. 

 

It doesn't.   Debate online gets vigorous and robust sometimes. Deal with it.  Instead of lazily accusing or straw-manning people who just plain disagree with you of some kind of net-crime - or worse. 

 

Peter is a regular and very helpful contributor to this forum and elsewhere. He helps people out a lot. 

 

Now if many have bad experiences with the HELIX and want to share that here. Fine. 

 

But its just intellectually lazy to accuse a vehement dissenter with "trolling".  As if doing so somehow helps _your_ case. 

 

And no doubt *I* will now be accused of trolling, being "arrogant" ... lowering the "tone"..... 

 

Such is life... 

 

Thanks so much for stickin' up for me. Scott and I have corresponded privately. It's all good, and we're totally cool... So all's well as ends well.

[cruisinon2]

in defense of the OP, 1500 isnt chump change. I too am very critical of things when i have to save and sacrafice for months and then not be impressed. To each his own.

 

You're right, it's not chump change. In fact, the price is really the only reason I don't have one yet....

 

However in the minds of some, it seems that "Expensive" = "Instant Awesome"...and that's what I find exceedingly odd. These are complicated devices, with enough bells and whistles to keep you occupied for years. Why would one ever assume that using it would be effortless?

[spikey]

You're right, it's not chump change. In fact, the price is really the only reason I don't have one yet....

 

However in the minds of some, it seems that "Expensive" = "Instant Awesome"...

If you are describing me thats not what I said. What I said was not to expect to get a 1600 dollar new preamp tone for 800.00. What I said was we usually get what we pay for. The reason why the 1600 dollar one sounds good is because it "is" expensive and well made with quality items that cost money to build. I understand trying to get a good deal- Im not saying thats wrong. But its unreasonable, foolish and frankly a cheap elitist attitude to have IMHO by thinking we should all have something for nothing, or even at half the cost new and then EXPECT it sound sound as awesome as one that cost twice the price. The devs gotta eat too. 

[ScottAyers]

Attn: Peter (Or someone in charge).

It might be wise to lock this thread. I can't see anything else posted here being constructive from this point onward. It's just going to be magnet for people who like to argue.

As the person who started this thread. I won't mind at all if you lock it.

I'll leave it up to you.

 

Cheers,

-ScottA

[PeterHamm]

Attn: Peter (Or someone in charge).

It might be wise to lock this thread. I can't see anything else posted here being constructive from this point onward. It's just going to be magnet for people who like to argue.

As the person who started this thread. I won't mind at all if you lock it.

I'll leave it up to you.

 

Cheers,

-ScottA

[spikey]

Best advice Ive read all day...

[siremoon]

Attn: Peter (Or someone in charge).

It might be wise to lock this thread. I can't see anything else posted here being constructive from this point onward. It's just going to be magnet for people who like to argue.

As the person who started this thread. I won't mind at all if you lock it.

I'll leave it up to you.

 

Cheers,

-ScottA

 

So let me get this straight.  You start a thread saying you can't get a single decent tone out of the Helix and have sent it back.  Ok no problem with that however then:

1.  You fail to answer most of the questions raised by other members in respect of your gear and Helix setup.

2.  You get upset when other members who have had Helix a lot longer (and in many cases have published samples of the great tones they are getting) have the nerve to suggest there might be more to this than the Helix being a poor product.

3.  You resort to calling those who disagree with you trolls

4.  You then say you are no longer participating in the thread but continue to do so

5.  You then want the thread locked because you are not getting the response you want to what you post

 

Quite frankly I don't know what you expected to happen.  From reading all of the fora where Helix is being discussed it seems to me to be pretty obvious that most purchasers are very happy with the tone they are getting.  I accept some are not but I don't see them being in the majority.  On the balance of probabilities it seems unlikely that all of the satisfied purchasers are simply failing to hear how bad the tone is.  Tone is very subjective and I get that you didn't like what you were hearing (despite being incredulous that you couldn't improve it by adjustment) however I don't see how you could have had any realistic expectation that everyone would agree with you.

[studiox19]

OP, that's a shame about not getting the reverbs to sound right. I've just had a quick skim through this thread and I really think that where you have had your effects in the chain is critical to getting a preliminary good sound. I've used DAWs for about 20 years and before that analogue mixers in a studio environment - no doubt much like a lot of other guys on this forum - and one tip that HAS to be also utilized on the Helix is that you MUST put your reverb into a separate bus or in Helix's case, a parallel path. Ideally, you would put your reverb mix at 100% and then use the blend control to govern how much of that wet mix affects the main signal chain. This way, you maintain your tone with the addition of subtle (or not so subtle) reverb. You could also just change the reverb mix to taste and leave the blend alone.

 

One trick with delays is to run them in a parallel path if you don't need over a certain amount of delayed signal. Used to use that well advised tip from the Axe FX II days. Kept the delay level from monkeying with your dry signal too much...

 

Yes. And extremely important for reverbs to be in parallel.

 

For an individual delay or reverb, the mix control is essentially the same as running in parallel. Running in parallel is useful if you want to keep delays out of the reverb or reverb out of the delays (both sound a bit different). I like to limit the amount of reverb and keep it pretty warm as reverb tends to push the tone back and makes it less distinct. I use delays for ambience instead of reverbs to get the benefits of ambience without the mud of reverb.

 

Ummm . . .  I'm not so sure that's right. Put a reverb (or delay) in serial and put the effect mix to 100%. All you'll get will be the effected signal. Put in parallel and you can add the effect to the original signal keeping your intended tone intact. But each persons tone and how you get to it is subjective :-)

 

No. This is important. I posted this thread because I wanted to give them specific reasons why I returned it.

If I just returned it and said nothing. They would not know why I returned it.

It's important to me that they improve it. Because I want to own one eventually.

 

Thank you very much for posting that YouTube video with the Satch patch. Because it illustrates exactly what I meant when I said "It sounds like I'm behind the band".

The main source of this is coming from the reverbs in the unit. To my ears it sounds like the person is playing behind everyone else.

Only the Helix sounds like this. I don't get this sound behaviour from the reverbs in my GNX or VST's.

Maybe it's just me. I just don't like the way it pushes the sound to the background. Especially when the reverbs and delays are used.

 

My hope is that by giving the Line 6 techs these kinds of specifics. They can maybe do something about it.

 

-ScottA

 

For those new to Helix who don't have much experience with signal paths and mix busses etc. etc., surely Line 6 are missing a trick by not supplying some rudimentary guide as to how to chain effects together without (or minimally) effecting the original tone. This is so important.

[Ka5par]

Ummm . . .  I'm not so sure that's right. Put a reverb (or delay) in serial and put the effect mix to 100%. All you'll get will be the effected signal. Put in parallel and you can add the effect to the original signal keeping your intended tone intact. But each persons tone and how you get to it is subjective :-)

 

The "trick" is to set the effect mix something less than 100%

[jar1zx]

This thread is pretty simple.

A guy buys helix and he doesn't like it.

 

This is a forum to talk about the helix. So he might as well talk about his bad experience.

 

I like mine and I can get some good tones so his thread does not change my mind about what I hear come out of my helix.

 

I personally think we should talk about the good and the bad of helix.

 

Anyone on the fence about buying a helix probably will not take this thread as a deal breaker.

 

If we all liked the same thing this would be a boring world.

[jar1zx]

Op might have had buyers remorse.

$1500 is a lot of money and not everyone can come up with it.

 

If he didn't like the sound, $1500 is to much to part with if you don't like it.

 

I think op did the right thing for him. But will be hard to get a group of people like me to justify that the helix sounds bad.

[spikey]

Until implants become the norm, Time spent on learning a piece of gear matters. Any gear. You can't expect Helix to make you a rock star overnight. Or even 2 weeks from now. Besides, thats not enough time for an old man like me to goto the restroom... Ive been playing for over 40 years and Ive barely, barely skimmed the surface of one or two kinds of guitar playing styles and techniques. I keep trying. But even so, you still have to spend the time, and if yer not willing to do that then it won't matter what gear you buy.

[bobthedog]

ScottAyers - 6 total posts on the forum , all in this thread. Makes you wonder, maybe you could have asked for some help? Or maybe its all about something different.

 

19 posts now, all in this thread.