danadstudios Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 The lackluster reverbs within Helix have been discussed elsewhere in this forum and I agree that they are Helix's #1 weakness. I believe they lack clarity, depth and space and can really compromise Helix's detailed amp models. Instead, I use one of Helix's Sends to my 11Rack (previously collecting dust) which has as its best feature great pro-tools reverbs (essentially Reverb One). What a difference; Helix's amp simulations' clarity and dynamics coming through! I'm sure any quality reverb pedal or rack device would do like a Strymon or an Eventide. Forget using Helix's return, why subject the signal to another round of A/D and D/A? Since I'm unwilling to go back to Helix's reverbs, I will be setting up MIDI patch change messages between the units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Well you didn't mention delays... Here's a list of just the added "delays" from a "beta" update I just downloaded for my Kemper... Tonic & Octave - 2016-11-09 16-16-39.kiprTalking Mice - 2016-11-09 15-41-45.kiprSuspended - 2016-11-09 17-26-31.kiprSunrise - 2016-11-09 15-42-49.kiprSoftener - 2016-11-08 14-31-35.kiprSinking - 2016-11-09 16-25-43.kiprShivers - 2016-11-09 17-24-10.kiprSETI - 2016-11-09 17-27-38.kiprRiding Along - 2016-11-09 17-25-32.kiprResolution - 2016-11-09 16-10-49.kiprPower Tone - 2016-11-09 16-26-39.kiprPoly Octaves 6 - 2016-11-09 17-21-48.kiprPoly Octaves 5 - 2016-11-09 17-21-30.kiprPoly Octaves 4 - 2016-11-09 17-21-13.kiprPoly Octaves 3 - 2016-11-09 17-20-55.kiprPoly Octaves 2 - 2016-11-09 17-20-36.kiprPoly Octaves 1 - 2016-11-09 17-20-16.kiprOctave Slapback - 2016-11-09 15-55-31.kiprMusical Box 2 - 2016-11-09 17-19-53.kiprMusical Box 1 - 2016-11-09 17-19-27.kiprMoth Wings - 2016-11-09 17-23-25.kiprMarvin - 2016-11-08 13-43-54.kiprMajor 2 - 2016-11-09 17-35-12.kiprMajor 1 - 2016-11-09 17-34-57.kiprWholetones - 2016-11-09 17-29-01.kiprWarm Pad - 2016-11-09 15-45-19.kiprVibro Up - 2016-11-09 16-22-32.kiprUpwards Arpeggio - 2016-11-09 16-13-13.kiprUnderwater - 2016-11-09 15-44-20.kiprTwinkling Stars - 2016-11-09 16-21-25.kiprHarp - 2016-11-09 16-11-49.kiprHalf Reverse Pad - 2016-11-09 15-51-42.kiprGritty - 2016-11-09 17-29-47.kiprFoundation - 2016-11-09 15-48-01.kiprFive of Nine - 2016-11-09 16-01-20.kiprFifth of Scotch - 2016-11-09 15-59-44.kiprFibonacci 13-16 - 2016-11-06 15-49-59.kiprDream Sequence - 2016-11-03 16-48-14.kiprDownward Tape - 2016-11-03 16-45-17.kiprDark Mystery - 2016-11-09 15-40-22.kiprCrystal Stairway - 2016-11-09 15-53-38.kiprCrystal Heights - 2016-11-09 15-46-47.kiprCrystal 5th - 2016-11-09 15-49-08.kiprClose Encounter - 2016-11-04 14-43-11.kiprChorus Organ - 2016-11-09 15-57-37.kiprBowed Metal - 2016-11-09 16-25-00.kiprBoo Hotel - 2016-11-03 16-49-12.kiprBig Triad - 2016-11-09 16-27-40.kiprBig & Dirty - 2016-11-09 15-39-08.kiprBelltower - 2016-11-09 16-14-51.kiprBallerina Chrom - 2016-11-04 11-46-37.kiprBagpipes - 2016-11-09 15-52-14.kiprAscension - 2016-11-09 15-56-29.kiprAlien Communique - 2016-11-09 16-23-55.kipr12-24 Lead in C - 2016-11-04 11-58-35.kiprHigh Voicing - 2016-11-09 16-28-44.kipr Those guys know how to do an update... ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hideout Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Maybe it's because I try to use it sparingly but I just don't have big issues with the Helix's reverbs. I'm still so focused on how good the amp models sound that whatever deficiencies the reverbs have just don't seem to matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verne-Bunsen Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 I don't happen to share your assessment of the Helix reverbs, but I am glad that you found a functional workaround that gets you the sound you're after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexKenivel Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 My solution is to wait for them to be updated and make due with stacking reverbs and EQs in parallel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunedinDragon Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 I hear this complaint every once in a while, but I have a hard time relating to it. I find the reverbs and delays more than sufficient for my purposes. But then I prefer to hear the guitar more than the effects. :rolleyes: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joepeggio Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 I hear this complaint every once in a while, but I have a hard time relating to it. I find the reverbs and delays more than sufficient for my purposes. But then I prefer to hear the guitar more than the effects. :rolleyes: Agreed, but i imagine many of the ambient type players rely heavily on the verbs/delays. 80% (random number) of the music is the ambient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbuhajla Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 The delays and reverbs are sufficient, but I sure won't complain when they get updated. I do miss my TC Electronic Reverbs (not enough to put them through a loop though). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_m Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Well you didn't mention delays... Here's a list of just the added "delays" from a "beta" update I just downloaded for my Kemper... Tonic & Octave - 2016-11-09 16-16-39.kipr Talking Mice - 2016-11-09 15-41-45.kipr Suspended - 2016-11-09 17-26-31.kipr Sunrise - 2016-11-09 15-42-49.kipr Softener - 2016-11-08 14-31-35.kipr Sinking - 2016-11-09 16-25-43.kipr Shivers - 2016-11-09 17-24-10.kipr SETI - 2016-11-09 17-27-38.kipr Riding Along - 2016-11-09 17-25-32.kipr Resolution - 2016-11-09 16-10-49.kipr Power Tone - 2016-11-09 16-26-39.kipr Poly Octaves 6 - 2016-11-09 17-21-48.kipr Poly Octaves 5 - 2016-11-09 17-21-30.kipr Poly Octaves 4 - 2016-11-09 17-21-13.kipr Poly Octaves 3 - 2016-11-09 17-20-55.kipr Poly Octaves 2 - 2016-11-09 17-20-36.kipr Poly Octaves 1 - 2016-11-09 17-20-16.kipr Octave Slapback - 2016-11-09 15-55-31.kipr Musical Box 2 - 2016-11-09 17-19-53.kipr Musical Box 1 - 2016-11-09 17-19-27.kipr Moth Wings - 2016-11-09 17-23-25.kipr Marvin - 2016-11-08 13-43-54.kipr Major 2 - 2016-11-09 17-35-12.kipr Major 1 - 2016-11-09 17-34-57.kipr Wholetones - 2016-11-09 17-29-01.kipr Warm Pad - 2016-11-09 15-45-19.kipr Vibro Up - 2016-11-09 16-22-32.kipr Upwards Arpeggio - 2016-11-09 16-13-13.kipr Underwater - 2016-11-09 15-44-20.kipr Twinkling Stars - 2016-11-09 16-21-25.kipr Harp - 2016-11-09 16-11-49.kipr Half Reverse Pad - 2016-11-09 15-51-42.kipr Gritty - 2016-11-09 17-29-47.kipr Foundation - 2016-11-09 15-48-01.kipr Five of Nine - 2016-11-09 16-01-20.kipr Fifth of Scotch - 2016-11-09 15-59-44.kipr Fibonacci 13-16 - 2016-11-06 15-49-59.kipr Dream Sequence - 2016-11-03 16-48-14.kipr Downward Tape - 2016-11-03 16-45-17.kipr Dark Mystery - 2016-11-09 15-40-22.kipr Crystal Stairway - 2016-11-09 15-53-38.kipr Crystal Heights - 2016-11-09 15-46-47.kipr Crystal 5th - 2016-11-09 15-49-08.kipr Close Encounter - 2016-11-04 14-43-11.kipr Chorus Organ - 2016-11-09 15-57-37.kipr Bowed Metal - 2016-11-09 16-25-00.kipr Boo Hotel - 2016-11-03 16-49-12.kipr Big Triad - 2016-11-09 16-27-40.kipr Big & Dirty - 2016-11-09 15-39-08.kipr Belltower - 2016-11-09 16-14-51.kipr Ballerina Chrom - 2016-11-04 11-46-37.kipr Bagpipes - 2016-11-09 15-52-14.kipr Ascension - 2016-11-09 15-56-29.kipr Alien Communique - 2016-11-09 16-23-55.kipr 12-24 Lead in C - 2016-11-04 11-58-35.kipr High Voicing - 2016-11-09 16-28-44.kipr Those guys know how to do an update... ;) Those aren't all different delay models, though - more like presets. I think Kemper approaches this stuff more from a synthesis perspective, which makes sense given their Christoph's background in the synth world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massimosevero Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 I think helix reverb is just sufficient, but when you try something better ( strymon for example) you see a biiiiiiig difference, it's like when you drive a audi and it's great, but if you drive a ferrari the audi looks like a yaris!!!! reverbs are a priority for me, I use many ambience presets, I'm fine with delays ( not the best but very good) and modulations, but need better quality reverbs. P.s. kemper delays get a different approach but they're doing a great job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernsttore Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Well, i agree with danadstudios about this, when i plug my Helix into my Kemper the guitar tones really comes to life when use of the Kempers reverb and effects, the same goes to the cab sims.​ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealZap Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 I like the reverbs myself... but that's why there are many available loops and many available options out there.... have at it. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Those aren't all different delay models, though - more like presets. I think Kemper approaches this stuff more from a synthesis perspective, which makes sense given their Christoph's background in the synth world. Sure phil but the variety give you lots of different ways to spice up your tracks, and they sound great too! As far as the "reverbs" go I think they sound fine. They are not Strymon like verbs but they were never intended to be. Take a listen and enjoy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 I like the reverbs myself... but that's why there are many available loops and many available options out there.... have at it. :) Where in the HELL have you been!?!? :D Welcome back Zap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdanan0121 Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 For most of my recordings/ReAmping I use separate reverb plugins. DI did state HX reverbs are coming at some point. But even then I will largely use my plugins for final guitar recordings. Unless the HX reverbs are really that much better, then I would use them more. However for my wet monitoring while recording, and practice/jamming higher quality reverbs are certainly looked forward to with Helix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricksteruk Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 It would be easy to add outboard Reverb (on Mac/PC or iPad/iPhone) via USB in a FX LOOP - if the Send and Return blocks could be set to USB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealZap Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Been around, lurking alot. :) and of course playing the crap out of some Helix. Where in the HELL have you been!?!? :D Welcome back Zap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingsCool Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 One of the users (WiresDream ... Wires Dream Disasters on YouTube) over on The Thread posted a bunch of comparisons of Helix vs Strymon reverbs and delays. I had been pretty unimpressed with especially the Helix reverbs until I watched these videos, now I'm much happier once I applied his techniques. I think L6 kind of hurt themselves with the default settings on their reverbs, but that's just me... He basically goes through comparisons of all the reverb modes, here's a couple of examples: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelco Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 I feel like at face value you have a legitimate complaint - but if you played more with the Helix you'd get that same tone a huge verb would get you. I have a HoF and I haven't bothered putting it in the chain bc I can get there on the Helix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amsdenj Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Ambience provided by high quality reverbs and delays sound really great playing by yourself, and in carefully crafted song mixes. I agree that Helix could stand some improvements here. I use S-Gear and Logic plugins for back of the amp effects during recording. However I don't really consider Helix a recording platform, its not flexible enough. Helix Native is a better option, but in that case I still have lots of ambience options in my DAW. To me Helix is primarily a performance device, and in this context Helix ambience options are perfectly fine. Less is more for ambience in live performances because it can really make mud out of a live mix. Its the performance that's the focus, not the ambience. That may not be the case for solo artists, but for electric guitar in a typical band application, Helix reverbs and delays seem more than adequate. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdanan0121 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Ambience provided by high quality reverbs and delays sound really great playing by yourself, and in carefully crafted song mixes. I agree that Helix could stand some improvements here. I use S-Gear and Logic plugins for back of the amp effects during recording. However I don't really consider Helix a recording platform, its not flexible enough. Helix Native is a better option, but in that case I still have lots of ambience options in my DAW. To me Helix is primarily a performance device, and in this context Helix ambience options are perfectly fine. Less is more for ambience in live performances because it can really make mud out of a live mix. Its the performance that's the focus, not the ambience. That may not be the case for solo artists, but for electric guitar in a typical band application, Helix reverbs and delays seem more than adequate. As a recording guitarist... I don't know of a guitar platform that is more geared towards a recording platform. 8in8 out simultaneously over USB, that is definitely a recording platform. It just happens to be a great performance platform as well. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amsdenj Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 I use a Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 interface. I has two Hi-Z inputs and 8 mic inputs, plus many outputs and ADAT ins and outs. Helix is great for guitar-centered recording, but for more general home recording, 8 mic inputs could be more useful. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelco Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Try playing around with stereo delays with WOW at 0 and the feedback time super low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specracer986 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 I'm not a heavy reverb user. A little goes a long way and I have been fine with the Helix reverbs for nearly 8 months, until a few days ago. I was dialing in a new patch and I was playing a particular riff and I was getting some weird non musical harmonics every time I turned on the reverb block. I tried a couple of different reverb models and the result was the same. I plugged my HOF pedal into a send / return and that made a big difference. This made me realize that some of the cork sniffers that have been complaining about the Helix reverbs might actually have a good ear. ;) So no big scientific break through here, but I guess there's probably room for improvement. Something for a future update maybe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingsCool Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 So it seems that people who don't generally use delay or reverb are happy with the Helix delay and reverb.... interesting... How about some responses from some P&W or ambient folks, who actually do like to use a lot of reverb and delay? As I posted above, Wires Dream is a big Strymon user, and he's pretty happy with the Helix delays and reverbs, and so am I after I used some of his tips... (And, yes, I'm a prior HOF user... was very happy with it, just not happy enough to really want to sully my Helix by putting the HOF in a loop. I'm trying to stay as lean as possible (hence the reason for purchasing the Helix in the first place, not to mention access to a billion more amps and effects then I'd ever be able to purchase) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarzman Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 I don't think the Helix verbs are that bad either I usually have to turn the mix down to about 18% because of to much reverb., Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 So it seems that people who don't generally use delay or reverb are happy with the Helix delay and reverb.... interesting... I use reverb (old school) on almost every patch, and delay is used on leads and such. I have no bias against those that dont and im against reverb racism and delay deplorables. :P 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbuhajla Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 So it seems that people who don't generally use delay or reverb are happy with the Helix delay and reverb.... interesting... How about some responses from some P&W or ambient folks, who actually do like to use a lot of reverb and delay? As I posted above, Wires Dream is a big Strymon user, and he's pretty happy with the Helix delays and reverbs, and so am I after I used some of his tips... I guess I am one of those reverb cork sniffers, lol. I use them mainly for clean ambient sounds with long tails for pedal swells and such (mostly in contemporary Christian worship music). I used to use the TC Electronics Arena Reverb (Hall of Fame with some different factory presets). They are MUCH more refined. Like in the video, the longer you let the reverb trail, the more apparent how "refined" a reverb is. I don't dislike the Helix reverbs, I just look forward to the day that they get a little love. I know that some day, that day will come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexKenivel Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 I'm a proggy ambient guy. Helix reverbs are workable for me because I'm used to them from my Pod days. I stack them, put delays in front, EQs after, run some in parallel, but I'd rather not do all that. Patiently anticipating a reverb update :) Some people don't have the luxury of an awesome studio setup, good standalone interface, high-powered computers and libraries of VSTs, and are going to be paying off their Helix for a while...on a teacher's salary (in the lowest-paying district in Ca I might add)...with two children of his own... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelco Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 The best verbs I have ever heard were in the Eleven rack. That being said - buried in a mix it barely matters - it's more of just musing around in the studio for personal enjoyment. That also being said - I can get the same result I got on the eleven - just the knobs have different names and the settings are different. You can start with the secret journeys patch to see to how to go about it. The harmonic thing - are you sure pitch delay or harmony weren't on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtrman100 Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 DI mentioned that they would be reviewing and updating the Helix reverbs in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexKenivel Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 ...and trust me, when the song is at a certain point where the mix consists of subtle bass, sparse cymbals and droning, washy guitar that reverb most def matters! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelco Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 I guess that depends on what you like. I haven't really heard anything where blooming verbs coexisted well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelco Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 https://www.facebook.com/kelly.cordray.3/videos/1982606238633434/ Some of the most high resolution reverb ive heard, normally stuff doesn't resolve that far in the tail but I can clearly hear new blooming notes that were muddy before. And this is on a preset that came with the unit - ISS Flyby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestOpinion Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 Still want to see some Helix HX reverbs come to the Helix including some mono HX versions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danadstudios Posted January 26, 2017 Author Share Posted January 26, 2017 There are also options within 11rack reverbs for early reflection only algorithms and these, IMHO, impart an extra dimension of liveliness to the sound, sort of a smoothing enhancement to the Cab emulation. I think many Helix users that also record enjoy the inspiration of a finished, polished tone without having to suffer the latency of VSTs or obsess with post DAW processing. Sure I could tweak my Waves H-Reverb plugin except that first inspired take is already over. I get that reverb is in the ears of the beholder and certainly can wash out a live performance. Maybe through using Helix's delays and parallel paths one can stumble upon a great sounding reverb effect. Regardless, I started this topic to incentivize line 6 on their next update where we can all benefit from an improved reverb algorithm befitting one of the best effects pedals yet produced! https://www.bandmix.com/danadstudio/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdanan0121 Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Still want to see some Helix HX reverbs come to the Helix including some mono HX versions! Agreed on both points including the mono reverbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbuhajla Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 I have found myself using the cave reverb for almost everything I have reverb in lately. I found it to be the least harsh and most "natural" sounding to my ears. I have the high cut at 1kHz. For a more "room" reverb sound I turn the mix to about 30% and the decay to 1-2. For longer more ambient sounds I turn the mix to 50% and the decay to about 5 or so. Still can't wait for future releases from Line 6 to see what they do in the reverb world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewolf48 Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 There are also options within 11rack reverbs for early reflection only algorithms and these, IMHO, impart an extra dimension of liveliness to the sound, sort of a smoothing enhancement to the Cab emulation. Helix Cabs have Early Reflections as a parameter if that is what you want - the only control is "Amount" which appears to control both level and time but it may provide what you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danadstudios Posted January 28, 2017 Author Share Posted January 28, 2017 I finally got around to recording a comparison between Helix's and 11Rack's Hall reverb effect. Telecaster neck pickup into Helix's Archetype clean amp using 2 - 4x12 cali V30 cabs. No EQ nor effects. Reverb Decay 3 sec., predelay 13 ms, mix 30%. H vs 11R reverb 1.mp3 H vs 11R reverbs 2.mp3 H vs 11R reverbs 3.mp3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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