Helix Firmware 2.80

[rd2rk]

21 minutes ago, jmp22684 said:

Click thread titled "...firmware..." to see if there is any recent info. Read a bunch of ranting and only one post about the thread topic. Wonder why people ask others to read threads rather than ask questions already answered.... because sifting through a thread filled with info that has absolutely nothing to do with the actual topic is a waste of time.

 

Informational value of this thread = 0

Entertainment value = Priceless!

 

Love it when people post about what a waste of their valuable time it is posting to this kind of thread......ROFLMAO!!!

[jmp22684]

To keep things relevant...

 

Just grabbed one of these:

https://sca.coffee/certified-home-brewer

 

Our coffee snob friends always compliment and ask what kind of coffee we used... when the machine can make folgers taste good ;)

 

You'll notice "keurig" isnt on that list... we had one. Then we got a good machine. Never looking back.

 

Line 6 should develop a coffee modeler. Make your basic coffee sorta taste like any boutique brand you want! But then you would be missing that "coffee in the cup effect" since it is probably supposed to taste like a cup already sipped in the studio.

[craiganderton]

On 7/5/2019 at 6:19 AM, willjrock said:

Well all im saying man is that gear DOES matter. Anyone who thinks differently can tell themselves whatever they want,  but you dont choose a boogie when you want a marshall sound and a fender wont sound like a marshall no matter what you do. Youll have to get a marshall for that. 

 

Of course gear matters, my original point was that the music matters more. A good song can sound good on just about anything, but a bad song can't be saved by gear.

[rd2rk]

3 minutes ago, jmp22684 said:

Line 6 should develop a coffee modeler. Make your basic coffee sorta taste like any boutique brand you want! But then you would be missing that "coffee in the cup effect" since it is probably supposed to taste like a cup already sipped in the studio.

 

I'm pretty sure that this has been suggested over on Ideascale, along with free ponies.

I'm pretty sure we'll get our free ponies first!

[jmp22684]

3 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

I'm pretty sure that this has been suggested over on Ideascale, along with free ponies.

I'm pretty sure we'll get our free ponies first!

I don't know man.... I'm pretty sure whoever is writing code has more experience with coffee than they do with ponies.

[rd2rk]

4 minutes ago, craiganderton said:

 

Of course gear matters, my original point was that the music matters more. A good song can sound good on just about anything, but a bad song can't be saved by gear.

 

Somewhere out there on the Wonderful World Wide Web there's a home video of Joe Satriani playing "Satch Boogie" on a knock-off Strat through a tiny Gorilla practice amp.

Still a great song!

[zolko60]

"(...) I have posted I can't remember on whose page recently that we are working our asses off (...) We gonna alter the calendar (...) move spring out, shorten the summer (...) I would say within the next two weeks (...) If I am wrong and I am wrong all the time (...) we will update my mistake to the team...) I think we are very close, you know measure twice cut once kind of thing (...)"
1:09:00

 

[cruisinon2]

Where's the YouTube  "GE Top-Loading Washing Machine Hour"? I'm having spin cycle issues...;)

[Lachdanan0121]

somewhat on topic... Lol

 

I was speaking with my significant other this weekend, and explaining to her the significance of the update in regard to the qwerty functions.

 

She responds with "so, it's basically gonna be like a macro pad for your feet."

I was kinda stumped for a second, but it seems as if she is pretty spot on with her understanding of it.

 

I mean I can only speculate, but I would assume that is basically the same process as programming keyboard macros.

 

 

[rd2rk]

1 hour ago, cruisinon2 said:

Where's the YouTube  "GE Top-Loading Washing Machine Hour"? I'm having spin cycle issues...;)

 

Somebody! Quick! Cruisinon2 needs a Spin Doctor!

[Kilrahi]

3 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

Sarcasm aside, there are two excellent ways to set a kid up for failure. One is to deliberately be an a$$hole, offering nothing but condemnation. I had one of those parents.... and no one in their right mind would advocate that.

 

Equally ruinous however, is the opposite approach of limitless, empty praise for merely showing up and being adequate. Why? Because that vanishes the very second we dump them out into the world. And it's a simple, if not somewhat uncomfortable fact that "adequate" is what most of us are. Life is a bell curve, and the overwhelming majority of us live somewhere near the hump. Simply put, most people just aren't particularly special (and yes, I include myself. I'm not delusional)...and drilling it into their heads that they are special when it's mostly a lie, is a guaranteed recipe for disaster, every bit as much as constantly telling them that they're worthless. Lifelong exposure to ceaseless positive reinforcement, deserved or not, does nothing to prepare kids for a world that, most of the time, will not pat them on the back, even when it should. The result is often bitter, angry resentment when life doesn't turn out just as they had envisioned.

 

The sane approach to most things is sraight down the middle... but that's not allowed anymore. We chose one extreme or the other, until today's "expert" (aka tomorrow's village idiot) writes an article asserting that it's time to swing the pendulum back the other way... and like sheep, we dutifully follow, common sense and consequences be damned.

 

Yeah . . . it was meant as friendly sarcasm for a bleak Monday morning.

 

I actually think we agree on most things and I nodded through a lot of your reply.  I do think it's important to tell kids that they are special TO YOU . . .  but that indeed ALL people on Earth are special to someone and therefore deserving of mutual respect.

 

However, when it comes to abilities, skills, talents . . . yeah . . . I really think it's important to keep kids grounded there.  Some of my most painful lessons were thinking I was admiral lollipop only to find out I wasn't even second lieutenant lollipop.

 

In fact, YouTube has even made me cynical that some of the people we always thought of as "special" aren't nearly as special as we thought. Talented, sure, but damned lucky and often part of that luck was their course and life intersecting with other highly skilled people who made for a cohesive and powerful team. It's amazing to me how many people out there have serious skills in a variety of areas and the majority of the world will never know it because lightning just didn't quite strike for them, or they weren't even interested in the first place.

 

Edit: And that sucks about whichever parent was that way. I admittedly can't entirely relate . . .fortunately.

 

 

[datacommando]

 

Just wondering.

 

When we all get our free pony, will “spikey” get one with a tuner in it?

 

[the_bees_knees22]

5 hours ago, jmp22684 said:

To keep things relevant...

 

Just grabbed one of these:

https://sca.coffee/certified-home-brewer

 

Our coffee snob friends always compliment and ask what kind of coffee we used... when the machine can make folgers taste good ;)

 

You'll notice "keurig" isnt on that list... we had one. Then we got a good machine. Never looking back.

 

Line 6 should develop a coffee modeler. Make your basic coffee sorta taste like any boutique brand you want! But then you would be missing that "coffee in the cup effect" since it is probably supposed to taste like a cup already sipped in the studio.

Sir...sir... my good man.. An aeropress is the only way to go.  It makes the best cup of coffee you will ever have.  But you need to get a hand grinder so you can pour the love into every cup with manual labor.  I highly recommend a porlex.  Stainless steel... made of the finest materials.  lol     ..I lol, but I'm serious. lol

[cruisinon2]

12 hours ago, the_bees_knees22 said:

Sir...sir... my good man.. An aeropress is the only way to go.  It makes the best cup of coffee you will ever have.  But you need to get a hand grinder so you can pour the love into every cup with manual labor.  I highly recommend a porlex.  Stainless steel... made of the finest materials.  lol     ..I lol, but I'm serious. lol

 

I wish I had the patience for that... lol. I make cold brew in the summer... doesn't really count though, as you don't actually have to "do" anything except full a big glass jug with water and wait.

[schuha_at]

On 7/3/2019 at 4:14 PM, brue58ski said:

Are you implying that the ONLY reason he has them up there is because he can?

No I do not!

I think Joe Bonamassa sounds good with any amp. We can speculate about the reasons why he has more than one, but he will have a good reason on his level.

My somewhat ironic bonmont refers to the thread and not to Mr. Bonamassa. 

 

I play for 50 years now , but the quality of the music and musicians I've experienced had little to do with the equipment they used. 
I consider the thesis that a "better" equiment promotes inspiration or can even be its basis as a manipulative marketing argument.
From a certain price/quality class there is hardly any bad equipment but different approaches to reach the goal.
To become a better musician it is certainly better to practice more than always strive for the better equipment. 

 

To get to the point : Equipment has to serve its purpose and should be practical but does not make the music.

 

 Some improvements of the announced version 2.80 promise easier handling and even more variety. I am looking forward to it.

 

[rd2rk]

1 hour ago, schuha_at said:

I play for 50 years now , but the quality of the music and musicians I've experienced had little to do with the equipment they used. 
I consider the thesis that a "better" equiment promotes inspiration or can even be its basis as a manipulative marketing argument.
From a certain price/quality class there is hardly any bad equipment but different approaches to reach the goal.
To become a better musician it is certainly better to practice more than always strive for the better equipment. 

 

To get to the point : Equipment has to serve its purpose and should be practical but does not make the music.

 

I agree with you IN PRINCIPLE on all points.

 

HOWEVER - if a person BELIEVES that a certain specific piece of gear is KEY to getting the sound in HIS/HER head, and has the wherewithal to acquire that piece of gear without denying his children food, that person should do what makes him happy! Happy musicians play more, and thus get better faster!

 

At the very least, the ongoing pursuit of THE SOUND IN OUR HEADS spurs the economy and provides employment for many thousands of people! A worthy cause!

 

As to the requirement that a piece of musical gear must needs be practical and serve a purpose, NONSENSE I say!

 

Buy and play what you like for your own reasons, and if someone questions your rationale, LAUGH AT THE FOOL!

 

There is no requirement that you EVER be one bit better the musician than you are at this moment. There are already more great guitarists in this world than Carter has little liver pills!

 

Truly great Bassoon players (Bassonnists?), however, are another story!

[clumsylover78]

BTW Line 6 Updater 1.17 is out now so....

[spikey]

6 hours ago, rd2rk said:

To become a better musician it is certainly better to practice more than always strive for the better equipment. 

 

 

6 hours ago, rd2rk said:

There is no requirement that you EVER be one bit better the musician than you are at this moment.

 

My 1st electric was bought from Levines and was called a Marquis. I could have shot arrows at the 12th fret because the strings were so high on it.

My feelings are that if you start out by playing the guitar that is easier to play on from the beginning, you will practice longer (and get better sooner) because it hurts your fingers less.

That doesn't mean you need to start playing on a 4500 dollar PRS, but I think you shouldn't have to start out on a Marquis either. ; )

 

[rd2rk]

7 minutes ago, spikey said:

My 1st electric was bought from Levines and was called a Marquis. I could have shot arrows at the 12th fret because the strings were so high on it.

 

My first bass was a Zim-Gar with flats, and that's how it was! But, since I was already in a band, I HAD to practice. Built some great callouses! By the time I upgraded to a (first run) Gibson Thunderbird, I could bend strings like a bluesman with super-slinkys! There's something to be said for starting on crap equipment. At the very least, you can better appreciate the good stuff when you get it!

[HonestOpinion]

I give the same advice to parents looking for their kid's first guitar that Spikey laid out. Don't get an expensive guitar to start unless you have a genuine prodigy(consult a real guitarist for confirmation on this, all parents think they have a prodigy :-) ). Looks, sound, and everything else take a back seat for a new guitarist to a playable neck. So many new guitarists drop the instrument when they get one of those cheapos that require a vise-grip or a car parked on top of them to get the string to touch the fret. Playability first!

[HonestOpinion]

21 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

My first bass was a Zim-Gar with flats, and that's how it was! But, since I was already in a band, I HAD to practice. Built some great callouses! By the time I upgraded to a (first run) Gibson Thunderbird, I could bend strings like a bluesman with super-slinkys! There's something to be said for starting on crap equipment. At the very least, you can better appreciate the good stuff when you get it!

 

Hat's off to you for tenacity and perseverance, clearly in your case it was meant to be. I'll grant you for a driven musician one string tied to a nail on a board is sufficient but an instrument that is difficult to play is probably the most discouraging thing for a new musician.

[cruisinon2]

2 hours ago, HonestOpinion said:

I give the same advice to parents looking for their kid's first guitar that Spikey laid out. Don't get an expensive guitar to start unless you have a genuine prodigy(consult a real guitarist for confirmation on this, all parents think they have a prodigy :-) ). Looks, sound, and everything else take a back seat for a new guitarist to a playable neck. So many new guitarists drop the instrument when they get one of those cheapos that require a vise-grip or a car parked on top of them to get the string to touch the fret. Playability first!

 

+1... and with all the crappy guitar/ practice amp packages that your local Megalomusic hawks every Christmas, it's a borderline miracle that any kid ever sticks with it and learns to play. ;)

[soundog]

We had to build our first guitars with 2x4's, nails, and hay-bailing wire. If we whined about the pain and bleeding, the belt came out. Made men out of all of us, even my sisters.

[PDKTDK]

Screw the bugar eaters....where's 2.8?

[vstrattomusic]

6 hours ago, HonestOpinion said:

I give the same advice to parents looking for their kid's first guitar that Spikey laid out. Don't get an expensive guitar to start unless you have a genuine prodigy(consult a real guitarist for confirmation on this, all parents think they have a prodigy :-) ). Looks, sound, and everything else take a back seat for a new guitarist to a playable neck. So many new guitarists drop the instrument when they get one of those cheapos that require a vise-grip or a car parked on top of them to get the string to touch the fret. Playability first!

 

Ewww no, the most important thing when getting your first guitar as a little kid is that it looks cool, obviously a pretty lollipoping cheap guitar too, popular brand, 100-200€ range, a beginner barely knows how to tune a guitar, playability is something that (IMO) takes years to figure out, as you also become more experienced with guitar set-up and string gauges. What made me stick to the guitar as a little kid was just the motivation of playing along to my favourite songs and that it made me feel great, or spending time with effects seing what cool sounds I could come up with. Serious practice and all that other boring lollipop I didn't even consider until way later, when I decided to get serious about making music.

 

So IMO the most important thing for a young beginner is to have fun playing and to have access to GP tabs, you either click with it or you don't, no product will make a difference.

 

I think my first guitar was a Squier Bullet Strat and a Stagg combo amp, later used that with a Digitech RP90 or a Boss MT-2, combined with a Behringer DSP1000P from 1999 I think, it probably sounded terrible but I had a ton of fun playing hahah.

[schuha_at]

14 hours ago, rd2rk said:

HOWEVER - if a person BELIEVES that a certain specific piece of gear is KEY to getting the sound in HIS/HER head, and has the wherewithal to acquire that piece of gear without denying his children food, that person should do what makes him happy! Happy musicians play more, and thus get better faster!

 

I don't want a faith war. :-)
Belive is a personal reality and does not need to be criticized.
 

Basically, I don't want to stand in the way of every's happiness, although sometimes investments could be considered pointless after the fact, as I have often experienced by myself. :-)

 

Owner's happiness is a short pleasure, sustainable is the happiness to be able to make music by yourself.

[HonestOpinion]

1 hour ago, vstrattomusic said:

 

...

What made me stick to the guitar as a little kid was just the motivation of playing along to my favourite songs and that it made me feel great, or spending time with effects seing what cool sounds I could come up with. Serious practice and all that other boring lollipop I didn't even consider until way later, when I decided to get serious about making music.

 

So IMO the most important thing for a young beginner is to have fun playing and to have access to GP tabs, you either click with it or you don't, no product will make a difference.

...

 

 

Definitely agree it should be fun to pick up an instrument and a guitar that plays well seems like a good start.   Always loved GP tabs although I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of beginners these days prefer the almost infinite number of guitar tutorials available free on Youtube. Wish they had been around when I was first learning.

 

1 hour ago, vstrattomusic said:

 

Ewww no, the most important thing when getting your first guitar as a little kid is that it looks cool, obviously a pretty lollipoping cheap guitar too, popular brand, 100-200€ range, a beginner barely knows how to tune a guitar, playability is something that (IMO) takes years to figure out, as you also become more experienced with guitar set-up and string gauges.

...

I think my first guitar was a Squier Bullet Strat and a Stagg combo amp, later used that with a Digitech RP90 or a Boss MT-2, combined with a Behringer DSP1000P from 1999 I think, it probably sounded terrible but I had a ton of fun playing hahah.

 

Whoa! Let's not jump straight from getting something "playable" to a daily visit with a guitar tech to discuss intonation, true temperament, string alloys, and the perfect setup. All I'm saying is it is no fun requiring a complex system of pulleys and levers and the aid of hydraulics just to be able to chord an open "G" or "D" when you are first starting out. Sure there may be some buzzes, intonation issues, etc., just try to get a guitar that plays as easily as possible (strings reasonably close to the neck).

 

You had a "Squier Bullet Strat" starting out, that's a great starting guitar, ha, sheer luxury. My first guitar was a nylon string Sears model with horrible action, it drove me to the trombone. My first electric was a Japanese made Strat copy, pretty decent guitar actually and that's when I started to enjoy playing. There's many a great "looking" guitar languishing in a case in a closet, or collecting dust on a stand because it plays like crud.  Not every kid is going to be the same but for most beginners start with a good neck and fretboard and then worry about the rest. Amost a moot point these days anyway there are so many great inexpensive guitars to be had. Most beginning players without much to spend can find something that hits the mark in the major categories e.g. playability, sound , and looks.

[JimBracops]

It's coming! Yeah!! 

 

 

[spikey]

4 hours ago, HonestOpinion said:

just try to get a guitar that plays as easily as possible (strings reasonably close to the neck).

 

Exactly. When starting out the easier it is on your fingers the more you will "spank the plank". 

[gunpointmetal]

14 hours ago, HonestOpinion said:

I give the same advice to parents looking for their kid's first guitar that Spikey laid out. Don't get an expensive guitar to start unless you have a genuine prodigy(consult a real guitarist for confirmation on this, all parents think they have a prodigy :-) ). Looks, sound, and everything else take a back seat for a new guitarist to a playable neck. So many new guitarists drop the instrument when they get one of those cheapos that require a vise-grip or a car parked on top of them to get the string to touch the fret. Playability first!

Same thing I would tell parents when I was teaching beginner lessons. If you want the kid to give up on it, buy him a cheap department store guitar. If you want him to take it seriously, buy something decent enough to not be a fight to play. For one, there's a much better chance they'll stick with it and two; if they really don't get along with it you can actually sell it for money instead of $5 at a garage sale, lol.

[datacommando]

9 hours ago, soundog said:

We had to build our first guitars with 2x4's, nails, and hay-bailing wire. If we whined about the pain and bleeding, the belt came out. Made men out of all of us, even my sisters.

 

Ah, yes! The memory of that first diddly bow, that I acquired from your sister. Yes, the short one with a beard - the diddly bow, I mean.

 

;-)

[brue58ski]

My first guitar was my dad's nylon string circa age 11. It was left in a car in the hot sun one day so the nut warped slightly. Put folded matchbook covers in the two top string nut slots to compensate for that. My senior year (6 years later) I finally convinced my dad to get me an electric, a combined Christmas, birthday and graduation present. Got an SG. it happened to be a slightly different SG that year but what did I know. Fretboard goes all the way up to the neck pickup's ring (there's usually a gap) and I think the neck is actually skinnier than the usual SG's if you can believe that. Loved the look and Terry Kath had one in his picture in the CTA album. He was a pretty big influence for me. Also appeared in the only how to solo rock guitar book at the time. It was called Improvising Rock Guitar and was the only book like that at the time that I'm aware of. They shot film of a guitar player so his fingering could be analyzed. And had TAB which was definitely looked down upon at that time by the general Guitar Player magazine population at the time (1970's).  The guitar player was Pat Thrall who later played with Pat Travers for awhile. Sorry for that little stroll down memory lane.

 

That was it until the Variax for me.

 

Now about that tuner!!!

[Kilrahi]

I'm of the opinion you don't have to (and shouldn't) spend a fortune on your kid's first guitar because you just have no way of knowing if it's really going to take or not.

 

BUT - I also think you need to choose something reasonably decent (which in this day and age really doesn't cost a fortune).

 

My first guitar was when I was 12 - it was a "handmedown" nylon string that my parents thrust upon me to save money.  They were operating from a desire to do me right but living in challenging financial times, and following the bad advice of people they trusted. The thing couldn't stay in tune for more than 5 minutes, and trying to get it back in tune took another half hour. It didn't sound in anyway beautiful or inspiring, and it wasn't comfortable to play.

 

I didn't know any of this though. I was a dumb and stupid kid with no close family members who understood the instrument, and so I concluded that this was as good as guitars got, and decided I wasn't much for it. 

 

It was much, much, much later that I finally met a person who had a clue and they introduced me to a decent - not wallet breaking but decent - guitar. I fell in love, and it's been a huge passion since.  

[Heavyville]

If the kids want to play guitar they will play the guitar, end of story....I don't care what the condition is, drive and ambition win every time.  If a kid wussies out, he was gonna wussie out anyway. 

 

I learned on a 12 string acoustic converted to 6 strings that was purchased at Sears, when my fingers blew a part, I used electrical tape and kept going. 

so I'm not sure what the excuse to quit would be other than, I don't like playing the guitar i'd rather watch soccer.   

 

i'm gonna quote the dude here "that's just your opinion man"  and it is just my opinion. 

[soundog]

2 hours ago, datacommando said:

 

Ah, yes! The memory of that first diddly bow, that I acquired from your sister. Yes, the short one with a beard - the diddly bow, I mean.

 

;-)

 

You keep your hands offa my sister's diddly bow, datacommando.

[DunedinDragon]

I personally think passion is what keeps you on track regardless of what you do, and that applies to guitars as much as anything.

The quality of guitars in general were just not very good when I started taking them up in the early 1960s.  Even the high priced ones weren't always consistent in quality, much less the cheap japanese guitars sold by Sears and discount retailers after the Beatles invasion, which was the type I had.  When I started playing in 6th grade I couldn't keep count of all my friends that were starting to play guitar as the music scene exploded, and only a handful of them had anything better than me.  By 9th grade I was one of the few that had stuck with it, and by my senior year in high school I think I may have been the only one in my class still gigging in a band.

I didn't have the best equipment, but I had the passion for music which got me a scholarship and kept me playing and performing into college and touring with a band after college for several years (with much better equipment by that time).  While most of the other kids got into muscle cars and sports, I stuck with guitars and music because that was my passion...even with crappy gear.

[Heavyville]

3 hours ago, datacommando said:

 

Ah, yes! The memory of that first diddly bow, that I acquired from your sister. Yes, the short one with a beard - the diddly bow, I mean.

 

;-)

 

[brue58ski]

35 minutes ago, rucmas said:

If the kids want to play guitar they will play the guitar, end of story....I don't care what the condition is, drive and ambition win every time.  If a kid wussies out, he was gonna wussie out anyway. 

 

I learned on a 12 string acoustic converted to 6 strings that was purchased at Sears, when my fingers blew a part, I used electrical tape and kept going. 

so I'm not sure what the excuse to quit would be other than, I don't like playing the guitar i'd rather watch soccer.   

 

i'm gonna quote the dude here "that's just your opinion man"  and it is just my opinion. 

 

Absolutely true. You'll either want play or you won't. Lots of people say they want to play. But the reality probably is, they want to play a song they heard but don't really have the desire to play. I had that desire to play. A lot. I would get so into playing that I would forget to swallow and more than once, as I'm looking at my picking hand, a big splooge of drool would drop down right onto my guitar. Ya know,, the kind that looks like a shiny thread, all the way down. What a geek!! I have a friend I've known for decades and he still talks about how much he wants to play. But he don't. He's even talking about buying another guitar (his third).

[Kilrahi]

Obviously what gets people do feel "passion" will differ from person to person.  

 

Maybe there's a person out there who would still learn to love guitar if they were given a metal spoon with the words "guitar" branded on it, or if they were given a guitar where barbed wire was used for steel strings.

 

My hat is off to all of you who learned to play on instruments that literally tore your hands to pieces - but that was never going to work for me. What did finally work for me was an instrument that felt solid and sounded great. 

 

So at least in my case, the quality mattered SOMEWHAT. For others, maybe not so much. 

 

Edit: As I understand it, legend says that Hendrix first learned how to play guitar from a garbage kids toy with one string that he pulled out of a dumpster. When he did finally get his guitar, he, a left hander, had to turn it upside down and restring it to work for him - that's amazing passion and certainly plays into some of why he stood out so much, so I'm not knocking that special something some people have that will drive them to learn on any instrument, even if it might kill them, but the honest guy in me has to admit that there's no way that would have got me going. 

[Lachdanan0121]

I am of the mindset that willpower/desire/self discipline are the biggest factors in developing a skill like playing guitar.

 

That said, I also think that having a truly crappy instrument is one of the things that keeps people from pursuing it. I was fortunate that my dad bought me a strat pack when I was 16. Came with a crappy little amp that I upgraded from within the first 6 months. The guitar I used for about 2.5 - 3 years. It was a fender strat squire affinity series. I have been playing for about 18 years now.

 

I believe both of these are completely valid factors, and neither are completely in a vacuum. (so to speak)