Rocco_Crocco Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 will not run anything (guitar-wise) direct. He insists on mic'ing everything, to protect his equipment. I have a Helix, as does the other guitarist. I'm not gonna be in bad shape as I have a Tech 21 Power Engine cab, which is small and weighs next to nothing. The other guitarist, however, has to drag his Marshall 4x12 and buy a power amp. A power amp that will only ever be used at this particular venue. Apparently the sound guy is very good, but is kind of a lollipop as far as personality goes, and is obviously set in his ways. The only way I can see his gear getting damaged is if the volume knob gets inexplicably (possibly by an apparition?) cranked up on whatever modeler a guitarist or bassist is using, thus sending a massive signal to his board. Other than that ... Any of you guys have an experience like this with your band? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordans0nly Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 How's it sound with the Power Engine? Been thinking about picking one up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_m Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Seems like pretty dumb reasoning to me... What's he do with keyboards and acoustic guitars? I don't see how going direct with electric is any different than that. Maybe he'd feel better if you went into a direct box instead of using the Helix's XLR outs. I would ask if that would be a possible compromise. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanecgriffo Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 ha, ask the soundguy to supply amps then and see what he says.. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanecgriffo Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I''d be inclined to say "well this is what we use!" .. is there any chance to ask for a different soundguy? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanecgriffo Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 also if he is worrying then he may well be using a system that isn't powered enough for the task.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatters Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Seems like pretty dumb reasoning to me... What's he do with keyboards and acoustic guitars? I don't see how going direct with electric is any different than that. Maybe he'd feel better if you went into a direct box instead of using the Helix's XLR outs. I would ask if that would be a possible compromise. Yep I agree with this reasoning..... Tell him you have mic out or Line out, his choice. If he is a good sound guy he knows the difference. Like I said in some other post, I usually always give them mic output, because in most sound man's mind they have a mic input setup for a Electric Guitar channel. And if he is worried about you changing volume level.... Welcome to running sound for a guitarist. As a sound man I always have my fingers ready for the guitarist volume changes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatters Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Or here is a good one, let them know you need 2 channels, one mic, and one direct. And tell/ask them after the show, let me know which sounded better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
napynap Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 ...will not run anything (guitar-wise) direct. He insists on mic'ing everything, to protect his equipment....Any of you guys have an experience like this with your band? That reasoning from the 'soundguy' is insulting to any professional musician. You are the performer and whatever equipment you use is what the 'soundguy' should accomodate. Protecting 'soundguy's' equipment is easier without mics because there's less opportunity for feedback. Also 'soundguy' can use padding or limiting for any signal. Yes, I have had experience with engineer's set in their ways. Talk calmly with them and illustrate points and reasons you have for wanting to use the gear you have. Provide examples of how it's worked perfectly at other venues. The Helix uses professional level XLR direct outs specifically to make it easier for setup and teardown while providing excellent tone. If none of that works, it's time to approach management at the venue to assist, but make sure you've climbed the ladder first. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hideout Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I''d be inclined to say "well this is what we use!" .. is there any chance to ask for a different soundguy? I totally agree with this. As the sound guy, he works for you and it's his job to make whatever you feed his mixing board sound good. FULL STOP. There is no arguing, no ifs, ands or buts. If he's too incompetent to keep a modeler from damaging his PA gear, he shouldn't be getting paid to do a job that any professional ought to be able to do. He's copping an attitude based on a giant crock of BS. I'd bet he's a "tone snob" who's just frustrated 'cause he's a crappy guitar player. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mileskb Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I''d be inclined to say "well this is what we use!" .. is there any chance to ask for a different soundguy? I agree. This guy makes the rest of us (soundguys) look bad. Kinda pisses me off. Our (soundguys) job is to make the talent sound good for the venue. Period. I'd be inclined to give'em a choice... he can use what you have, or bring one these. or one of these and tell'em mic away and have a ball. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strabes Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Are you saying you met a soundguy with weird power/control issues? Gee, never encountered that before... <_< 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willjrock Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 hideout is spot on IMO, but id take a powered studio monitor and let him mic that. Something you already have im sure. If not, you can pick one up cheap. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHamm Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 "to protect his equipment" from his own ignorance and boneheadedness. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amsdenj Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 He's worried about protecting his equipment from direct outputs? Wouldn't potential feedback from microphones be a more common concern and bigger problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHamm Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 He's worried about protecting his equipment from direct outputs? Wouldn't potential feedback from microphones be a more common concern and bigger problem? He's a luddite with gear. Very dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocco_Crocco Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 How's it sound with the Power Engine? Been thinking about picking one up. It sounds good, but not as good as going direct or into an FRFR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocco_Crocco Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 What's he do with keyboards and acoustic guitars? I don't see how going direct with electric is any different than that. Maybe he'd feel better if you went into a direct box instead of using the Helix's XLR outs. I would ask if that would be a possible compromise. I am going to ask the guy about using a direct box when we get there. He already does it for basses, too. Right? I never met the sound man but the few people I know that played at this venue say you have to walk on eggshells with this guy. We have two more gigs lined up there for 2017, and it pays well so we're going to try to make it work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocco_Crocco Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 ha, ask the soundguy to supply amps then and see what he says.. Then I may get stuck with one of these :lol: This was my first amp. I couldn't believe I couldn't get it to sound like Jimmy Page LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocco_Crocco Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 As the sound guy, he works for you and it's his job to make whatever you feed his mixing board sound good. FULL STOP. There is no arguing, no ifs, ands or buts. If he's too incompetent to keep a modeler from damaging his PA gear, he shouldn't be getting paid to do a job that any professional ought to be able to do. He's copping an attitude based on a giant crock of BS. Well, he really works for the venue, and he's been there for years. They're paying well and we have a few more shows lined up there for the rest of 2017, so it's in our best interest to be as accommodating as we reasonably can. Also puzzling is the sound at this place is supposed to be amazing, which is seemingly incongruent to the way he operates. The whole situation is just bizarre. I will say he will get no extra money from us as a tip if he act like a DB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_m Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Haha... the grumpy sound guy meme in real life! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Its a line out to line in signal. What exactly is he trying to protect? Sounds like a typical set in his ways old dude. I know one just like him :P ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe5 Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I am going to ask the guy about using a direct box when we get there. He already does it for basses, too. Right? I never met the sound man but the few people I know that played at this venue say you have to walk on eggshells with this guy. We have two more gigs lined up there for 2017, and it pays well so we're going to try to make it work. I was thinking this as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverhead Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 .. I'd take a powered studio monitor and let him mic that.... That would be my suggestion too. No point in arguing who's right/wrong. You're not going to change him and you've got more well-paying gigs coming up with him. Best to give him what he wants with minimum impact on your tone, and I think this is the easiest way to do that - and cheap with an FRFR monitor rental. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocco_Crocco Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 That would be my suggestion too. No point in arguing who's right/wrong. You're not going to change him and you've got more well-paying gigs coming up with him. Best to give him what he wants with minimum impact on your tone, and I think this is the easiest way to do that - and cheap with an FRFR monitor rental. I have an alto ts212 that I always use. I figured it would sound bad mic'd because the tweeter takes some of the high freqs away from the main 12" speaker. Have you ever done this (mic'd an FRFR)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klangmaler Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Its a line out to line in signal. What exactly is he trying to protect? [...] His reputation? Just lost! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocco_Crocco Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 I actually just hooked up my T21 Power Engine. It sounds pretty good, especially loud. I didn't change any settings on the patches I usually use on gigs and it sounded better than OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klangmaler Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 ...maybe the soundguy heard of the XLR trouble with the Helix. So you can still use the 1/4 outs and DI boxes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocco_Crocco Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 ...maybe the soundguy heard of the XLR trouble with the Helix. So you can still use the 1/4 outs and DI boxes... No he does it with modelling combo amps that have XLR outs, PODs, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zooey Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 The Power Engine does seem much more likely to mic up well than an FRFR with a separate tweeter. DI seems sonically preferable, maybe less scary for the sound guy, and as others have said, something he's almost certainly going to do for other instruments. Maybe try asking what exactly he's concerned might happen that could damage his gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_m Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 ...maybe the soundguy heard of the XLR trouble with the Helix. So you can still use the 1/4 outs and DI boxes... I doubt the sound guy knows anything about the Helix... Many sound guys haven't learned something new since 1978. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klangmaler Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I doubt the sound guy knows anything about the Helix... Many sound guys haven't learned something new since 1978. Yep. Because they believe that there wasn't anything new since 1977 :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erniedenov Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Haha... the grumpy sound guy meme in real life! When I started reading this thread I thought about posting this; you beat me to it! Anyway, you could TRY to reason with the house soundman in this club. But don't hold your breath... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willjrock Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Maybe try asking what exactly he's concerned might happen that could damage his gear Oh i cant wait to hear this one. Lets see if we can guess his response......and then link him to the thread just before Rocco takes the stage :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hideout Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Well, he really works for the venue, and he's been there for years. They're paying well and we have a few more shows lined up there for the rest of 2017, so it's in our best interest to be as accommodating as we reasonably can. Also puzzling is the sound at this place is supposed to be amazing, which is seemingly incongruent to the way he operates. The whole situation is just bizarre. I will say he will get no extra money from us as a tip if he act like a DB. I was really speaking to his duties as a sound man, not the financial aspect or who his bosses are. But indeed, no tip from me either if I had to play the gig. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatters Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Well, he really works for the venue, and he's been there for years. They're paying well and we have a few more shows lined up there for the rest of 2017, so it's in our best interest to be as accommodating as we reasonably can. Also puzzling is the sound at this place is supposed to be amazing, which is seemingly incongruent to the way he operates. The whole situation is just bizarre. I will say he will get no extra money from us as a tip if he act like a DB. Yep Rocco you do have to accommodate him if you do want to play there again. So it is that thing of trying to work with him, which always works best as they have the power to make your band mix bad or good. I would still ask for 2 channels, and let him hear what the Helix can do, it could be a learning experience for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mileskb Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 will not run anything (guitar-wise) direct. He insists on mic'ing everything, to protect his equipment. Any of you guys have an experience like this with your band? After calming down... If it's a good paying gig... rent your own system and soundguy. problem solved. You may not have as much scratch left, but you'll sound better, feel better, play better. The gig's already been soured if this guy is in the building. Or... just hire your own FOH guy. If you get the "we don't let other people run our sound"... I'd cancel the gig. Right... Taylor Swift, Pink, Lady Gaga, Aerosmith, BOC, Foo Fighters, Garbage... (whomever you get the idea... ) gets booked and they'd say "you can't use your sound guy??" Let the venue have bands cancel because the sound guy is a lollipop, and see how fast they get a new sound guy. Remember... it's calling Playing Music...cause it's supposed to be fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robberns Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I can't let this one go by me.... I am a Live Sound Engineer (I prefer that label over "sound guy"), have been mixing bands for over 30-years. I'm also a guitar player, collector, and Helix owner. I work pretty much every weekend, with a handful of bands (weddings, clubs, private parties) and also pickup gigs as they come along. For a "sound guy" to be so inflexible and passive/aggressive towards a client is beyond me. Not my style. It's not like there haven't been guitar modelers out there for many years. Before the Helix, I ran into quite a few bands using the Fractal product, and as an engineer, am ecstatic when I can take an XLR feed and not have stage volume of a guitar amp to deal with. If the band is using IEM's, even better. I give them access to my router and they can mix their own monitor mix on a smartphone. If they aren't using IEM's, I'll feed them some guitar through a floor wedge. For guys that are used to moving air with a 4x12 cab, it is a bit of an adjustment. But I am constantly battling guitar (and bass) players about stage volume. If you are still too loud out front when I have you removed from the mix, why are you paying me? The other thing that is baffling is the comment about damaging equipment by going direct. What? How? One of the guitar players in a band I work with uses a Helix, no amp or cabinet, and it sounds great out front. I feed him a bit of his guitar through his wedge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 will not run anything (guitar-wise) direct. He insists on mic'ing everything, to protect his equipment. I have a Helix, as does the other guitarist. I'm not gonna be in bad shape as I have a Tech 21 Power Engine cab, which is small and weighs next to nothing. The other guitarist, however, has to drag his Marshall 4x12 and buy a power amp. A power amp that will only ever be used at this particular venue. Apparently the sound guy is very good, but is kind of a lollipop as far as personality goes, and is obviously set in his ways. The only way I can see his gear getting damaged is if the volume knob gets inexplicably (possibly by an apparition?) cranked up on whatever modeler a guitarist or bassist is using, thus sending a massive signal to his board. Other than that ... Any of you guys have an experience like this with your band? Why let this guy dictate what gear YOUR band has to use? To hell with him...show up with your Helix and a guitar. If there's no cabinet to throw a mic on, what's he gonna do? Refuse to let you play? Unless he owns the venue, that probably won't go over well with the guy who's paying you to be there. When you're on stage, it's your sand box. Don't let him pi$$ in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshimkoski Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Sounds to me like the "sound guy" is an amateurish hack. I'd request a different guy. I'm pretty sure he'll give your band a bad sound anyway. If the venue cannot provide one or won't accept someone you bring, I'd decline to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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