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mikefstewart

Future Helix 2

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Total random, curious question.  I am likely to buy a Helix Floor in the next couple of months.  Been researching for too long now.  Thought about Kemper, Fractal or buying a tube amp, etc.  How long do you think it will be before Line 6 says we need a new Helix version, like a Helix 2?  Thanks

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They're in business to make money. So whenever the next thing is ready, and whenever it makes financial sense for them to introduce a new product, that's when we'll see it. Now given that they're still developing Helix, my guess is "not soon"... but it could show up tomorrow morning for all I know. Technology moves at the speed of light. "The next big thing" is always imminent at this point. If not from Line 6, it'll come from somebody else. They wouldn't bother having the NAMM show every 6 months if there was nothing new to gawk at/drool over. If you obsess over it, you'll be in a constant state of waiting, and never buy anything.

 

Besides...the only people who actually know the answer wouldn't tell you if you pulled their toenails out with pliers, anyway. Want a Helix? Buy it...

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It has been said officially that 2019 was going to be a big year for the Helix. I take this to mean we got at least 2 more years. At least. This, however, is also a big, huge, unsubstantiated guess.

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I can't give a timeline. But I can say that Line6 has been laying the groundwork for a "Helix 2" that's an incremental upgrade from the Helix Floor. With the 2.8 update, they're bringing the codebase together for all of their HX products, even Helix Native. That means they can treat HX less like a product family and more like an ecosystem, in which continuous development of a single stream of software can keep an entire line of products up-to-date.

 

So just like the HX Effects and HX Stomp are feature-light editions of the Helix, a new flagship "Helix 2" could be released without obsoleting the existing Helix Floor. The 2 would probably have additional DSP to allow for more complex signal chains, and maybe it will have some hardware upgrades—like a larger display, or (my most wished-for feature) a Bluetooth module for iPad control. Maaayyyybe some additional I/O, but... honestly, the I/O is pretty exhaustive already.

 

If I'm right, then those sorts of hardware updates can keep being released, and us O.G. Helix Floor owners still won't need to worry about missing out on future software upgrades. 

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Without any inside knowledge, I tend to feel the same as @mitchellisdumb in regards to what is coming. They are unifying the HX products, not isolating them... you don't do that if you plan on making it obsolete with a new product line. Any new hardware (down the road) might have more power, maybe a new feature or two... but the core software/system will likely remain and the older products will still enjoy the software upgrades that follow.

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3 hours ago, codamedia said:

Without any inside knowledge, I tend to feel the same as @mitchellisdumb in regards to what is coming. They are unifying the HX products, not isolating them... you don't do that if you plan on making it obsolete with a new product line. Any new hardware (down the road) might have more power, maybe a new feature or two... but the core software/system will likely remain and the older products will still enjoy the software upgrades that follow.

The last two comments are very refreshing to hear.  I feel confident buying a product that will continue to grow and be supported vs growing old and needing replaced in two years because software upgrades stop happening.  I looked at all the options in modelers and profilers and probably can't go wrong with anything at this point but the Helix just looks simple and fun to use as well as being on the arc up in growth and capability.

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4 hours ago, codamedia said:

Without any inside knowledge, I tend to feel the same as @mitchellisdumb in regards to what is coming. They are unifying the HX products, not isolating them... you don't do that if you plan on making it obsolete with a new product line. Any new hardware (down the road) might have more power, maybe a new feature or two... but the core software/system will likely remain and the older products will still enjoy the software upgrades that follow.

 

Or next week they could have some sort of revolutionary breakthrough that fundamentally changes the modeling world forever, but oops! It'll require fundamentally different hardware. They spend the next six months working out the kinks, and dump an entirely new platform on us just in time for Christmas so they can cash in before Fractal and Kemper steal the recipe for the new "secret sauce". Stranger things have happened... who was its that said a plan is just a list of things that won't happen? ;)

 

Yes, I'm playing Devil's advocate here, but the point is that the same question gets asked repeatedly, and without bugging the executive crapper at L6, all anybody can do is guess at an answer. 

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25 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

Yes, I'm playing Devil's advocate here, but the point is that the same question gets asked repeatedly, and without bugging the executive crapper at L6, all anybody can do is guess at an answer. 

 

I don't disagree with this at all... I often enjoy playing devils advocate myself :) 

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I don't think there's going to be a bigger and better Helix Plus or anything like that... There were external factors that drove the release of the HD500X. I don't think those sort of things are in play at the moment.

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The limitation for the Helix family is more likely software than it is hardware. Helix already has a good compliment of hardware features. A new model might have Bluetooth, WiFi, touch screen, different knobs, more DSP, etc. but probably not a fundamentally different architecture. They’re likely going to try to leverage the hardware base for as long as they can to recover the ongoing software development costs. But this is pure speculation, mixed with a bit of wishful thinking. 

 

I’m still hoping for updated Variax hardware/software.

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The hardware has the capability to be upgraded (via software) as long as the DSP chips have capacity.  The current modeling is light years ahead of even the PODHD stuff, which was quite good in itself.  I don't think the hardware is the limiting factor of development just yet.  As far as things like touchscreens or physical knob interface, it shouldn't really effect base functionality.

 

At this point, beyond adding more amps, the only thing left is allowing custom models.  I mean, being able to assemble your own amp, picking what tubes are in what spots (V1 is a 12AX7, V2 a 12AU7, etc...) EL84/6L6, how many, what wattage, output transformer type....etc.  Also putting different speaker models in different cabinets, and also mic position between center and edge of speaker cone.  These are the type of things that I can see being a welcome addition to the Helix.  I don't see any of these features necessitating new hardware.  

 

This all seems like a great big beta test of hardware in the last few years.  You had HD500X with the improved POD HD modelling, and mulit (dual) paths,  and there's the Firehawk FX(which also uses PODHD) with built-in Bluetooth, but single path.  The Firehawk FX interface is eerily similar to the Helix, which is why it was such an easy jump for me (from FHFX to Helix LT).  Maybe these technologies will all roll into a great package, hopefully for no more cost of current generation of hardware and the current hardware is discounted some. 

 

I say this because the hardware development costs should have recovered, based on most business cases of 2-yr ROI.  Why spend the money when you won't make any?  Helix released in 2015.  I would say they have made their money back plus some to be profitable (they don't do this for free).  Helix LT is in a similar situation, released in 2017, with minimal costs as most of the internals are just a derivative of the original.  The hardware development of the Bluetooth functionality was tested and proven with the Firehawk FX/Amplifi platform.  

Thoughts, anyone?

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7 hours ago, phil_m said:

I don't think there's going to be a bigger and better Helix Plus or anything like that... There were external factors that drove the release of the HD500X. I don't think those sort of things are in play at the moment.

 

Interesting. If so, then their direction is not toward a new Helix (as I wrongly predicted by last Holiday Season). So then what "other" direction are they pointed I wonder?  A new Variax? Vetta-3 perhaps?

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3 minutes ago, spikey said:

 

Interesting. If so, then their direction is not toward a new Helix (as I wrongly predicted by last Holiday Season). So then what "other" direction are they pointed I wonder?  A new Variax? Vetta-3 perhaps?

A new variax!!!! A new variax!!!

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L6, would keep the Helix hardware in the market for as long as possible.   With incremental improvements to the software (which is now as someone indicated above, one complete ecosystem).  The product most likely hit its goal for the ROI intended. What i'm hoping for now would be that they release software enhancements the are a bit deeper to push more sales of the current hardware unit which would be in "profit mode" for them.  These upgrades still get fed to current users and gain new ones "essentially revamping the validity" of the unit in these ever changing times.    I say lay back, chill and enjoy the ride!

 

 

The thoughts expressed above are future looking, mindless, unknowing bs. I just wanted to chime in while drinking my morning coffee and reading some fine

William Shattner about my favorite amp modeling system.   

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23 hours ago, robertgoddard said:

This all seems like a great big beta test of hardware in the last few years.  You had HD500X with the improved POD HD modelling, and mulit (dual) paths,  and there's the Firehawk FX(which also uses PODHD) with built-in Bluetooth, but single path.  The Firehawk FX interface is eerily similar to the Helix, which is why it was such an easy jump for me (from FHFX to Helix LT).  Maybe these technologies will all roll into a great package, hopefully for no more cost of current generation of hardware and the current hardware is discounted some. 

 

I say this because the hardware development costs should have recovered, based on most business cases of 2-yr ROI.  Why spend the money when you won't make any?  Helix released in 2015.  I would say they have made their money back plus some to be profitable (they don't do this for free).  Helix LT is in a similar situation, released in 2017, with minimal costs as most of the internals are just a derivative of the original.  The hardware development of the Bluetooth functionality was tested and proven with the Firehawk FX/Amplifi platform.  

Thoughts, anyone?

 

For the last several years there's been a heavy focus on "HD" sound. How close the model can get to the real thing has been the general thinking. I suspect we'll continue to see a push towards that for the next few years, but very quickly it's going to become snake oil (if it's not there already). Snake oil works for a while, but eventually people start to realize that there is not much of a benefit gained or differentiation between all of the devices (in today's world, one HD TV looks very much like another HD TV). There are limitations to what the human ear can actually perceive, and what we are technologically capable of shot past that long ago. 

 

Because of this I have wondered if upgrading hardware over time, that keeps relatively the same software, is where the real winner will show up. For now, I think Line 6 clearly kills the competition here with its UI and extensive routing options. However, will it maintain this lead? 

 

You look at groups like Playstation and Xbox who have started releasing hardware updates for essentially the same device and seen great success. Could that be replicated with Helix? To be clear, there are FAR more purchasers of game systems than modeling devices, and so that fundamental difference needs to be admitted. It takes R&D costs and manufacturing changes that would have to be recouped, and to recoup them you need to sell quite a bit. Sell a few million Playstation 4 slims and you have already done it, but Helix isn't going to sell like that. It should also be noted that in some ways this is exactly the approach Line 6 seems to be taking with the HX Effects and HX Stomp which essentially run on the exact same software, but are targeted towards an entirely different audience than those who would purchase an LT or Helix floor. 

 

Still, in three years would it make sense to release a "NEW" Helix upgrade? This device would essentially run on "souped" up models (whatever that means at this point - but what I'm really saying is that they use the same modeling algorithms as before but expanded for the new hardware) but could incorporate other clear hardware benefits (blue tooth connection, mobile app, wi-fi to download firmware without a PC, touchscreen, amped up processor, wireless guitar connector, etc.). Obviously I'm guessing at what a desirably upgrade might include, and I'm sure I'm picking some things that aren't that useful and forgetting others that are.  The point is, I DO think that type of next generation would be the more economical and even customer oriented choice than once again re-imagining the whole modeling process where I think you'll start to see diminishing returns. 

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I'm guessing Helix 2 is at least a year away.. Since line 6 has been integrating their complete Helix line into Helix core  / Helix  ,,LT ,  Helix Stomp , Hlx Effects and Native and with 2.80 and 3.0  firmware updates coming out soon.... Helix 2 should still be a while yet imo ,,,,. Line 6 has also introduced the Powercab & PC + that's still fairly new on the market, so who knows what's next but looking forward to some great things from L6 in the next few years!!..

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On 5/28/2019 at 12:24 PM, amsdenj said:

The limitation for the Helix family is more likely software than it is hardware. Helix already has a good compliment of hardware features. A new model might have Bluetooth, WiFi, touch screen, different knobs, more DSP, etc. but probably not a fundamentally different architecture. They’re likely going to try to leverage the hardware base for as long as they can to recover the ongoing software development costs. But this is pure speculation, mixed with a bit of wishful thinking. 

 

I’m still hoping for updated Variax hardware/software.

Agree on the Variax. I have tried them three times. I actually like the Standard better then the heavy JTV 69 I had so I got another standard. I still wasn't thrilled with the models so a basically new Black Standard with upgraded Graphtech Ratio tuners (also black) that just sits on my rack.  I realize I have too many nice guitars that cover a lot of the ground. But to me guitar modeling just isn't there yet. I know a lot disagree. I only use mine if I want a strat and lp for a very short set were swapping isn't practical. It is a great tool for that. But I only play at church. Especially with the health scares the last year and half (why I have not been around as much or was crabby when here...lol).

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Quote

But to me guitar modeling just isn't there yet. I know a lot disagree. 

 

Not I. And, they've needed to fix the Strat sound/tone since the beginning as far as I'm concerned. Yea I know I can adjust it with Workbench, I just feel like if I can hear and feel it's not right, so should they.

 

BTW- hope you get to feeling better soon Ralph.

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I think we're due a refresh of the Helix Floor and Rack relatively soon.  To me there seems to be not enough clear distinction between the high end units and the LT - yes there are oodles of outputs and inputs but no processing power difference, and no sound difference either.  If you could (say) double the DSP to allow (optional?) seamless patch changing together with maybe some super high-res models, or something with serious DSP requirements like an answer to the Melo9/Synth9/SY300 you might be able to push the price up to 2k and then compete with Fractal head on for the aspirational market.  Simultaneously a 'for dummies' mode UI would hit the Headrush.

 

At least from the outside it seems to me Line 6 are in a pretty good place.

 

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I believe that
1. There will not be a "Helix 2". Not for at least a few years. The latest HX product is pretty new, and they are still able to add SO much. It was built to last WAY more than any other product they've ever made.
2. belly-aching and worrying about it is a bad reason to not buy something that WILL let you make music TODAY.

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Sorry, older thread now,  but another thing to consider is that the current hardware isn't really all that limited.  Look at how much DSP is available, and who uses 100% of the DSP all the time?  I know some people do, and that's great!  

I think that the current hardware has the capability to last another 5 years.  The reason Line 6 keeps updating the software (for free!!) is because not only does it keep us current owners happy, but it offers value to those who haven't purchased yet.  Who wants to buy something that isn't supported anymore?  Updating the software and offering new features isn't free, but costs much less than hardware development, prototyping, and assembly line changeover costs.  This helps Line 6 sell more of their current hardware, at profit, and gives us goodies!  2.8 Update HURRY UP!! (had to throw it in, sorry :-))

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One thing regarding the SHARC chips being used in the Helix is that they're the same exact chips that Fractal is using in the upcoming FM3... So in that sense, they must be expecting the chips to be made for awhile yet.

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My only thought is that - rather than replacing the HELIX Floor in their lineup they might be considering a "Pro-on-steroids" or "Plus" model considerably more expensive than current HELIX Floor - and which incorporates for example proper multi-track looper ( with loop lengths in the 10 minutes region instead of around 1 minute ) , SDHXC card slot for looping and backing track playback... , etc etc etc... and price it just below £2000. so both the original and this sit in their place price-point wise in the ecosystem... 

 

Maybe the added DSP power could go towards an even higher A/D and internal sample-rate ( 384kHz ?... -  ) in order to render ANY latency totally negligible ( are you listening Steve Vai? )  and might allow even more accurate speaker-interaction modelling etc without sacrificing blocks.   Some of this could then optimally also find its way into existing HELIXES but at the expense of reduced block counts - 

 

Maybe the unit could also introduce guitar modelling similar to some stomp boxes now coming out - 

 

So maybe adding for first time a touch screen for example , And a few extra knobs to directly adjust USB 1/2 output levels etc etc.. 

 

And maybe more stomps and (COLOUR) scribble strips ??   ( I WANT MORE ..... BABY ! ) 

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Well, I bought a Helix floor at Christmas 2017/18 and I will run it for four years minimum. If a successor unit is launched in the meantime, I'll probably wait until the fourth year is up then upgrade. I have no problem paying ~ £250 / year for current Helix quality sound. Many people pay that and more for a single pedal, never mind a vintage / boutique amp etc. Try as I might, I can't understand the moaners - the current unit is superb if set up carefully and I agree with earlier comments about the diminishing returns from modelling fidelity vs DSP and additional functionality.

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6 hours ago, phil_m said:

One thing regarding the SHARC chips being used in the Helix is that they're the same exact chips that Fractal is using in the upcoming FM3... So in that sense, they must be expecting the chips to be made for awhile yet.

 

Agreed, they wouldn't be putting chips they can't get any more in a new product.

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6 hours ago, phil_m said:

One thing regarding the SHARC chips being used in the Helix is that they're the same exact chips that Fractal is using in the upcoming FM3... So in that sense, they must be expecting the chips to be made for awhile yet.

 

By the way Phil, do you know if the chips have the same GHz power or whatever the SHARCs are based on?

 

I understand they're both SHARCS, but in the world of computer processing that doesn't necessarily mean they're the same SHARC. I have a PC today with an I7 that runs circles around another I got in 2010 with an I7. 

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I see what you mean Kilrahi, but Phil said it's the same "exact" chips. I don't mean to speak for him but that means to me it's the same "exact" chips speed and specs wise.

After reading what he writes here for years I wouldn't think he meant anything else.

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21 minutes ago, spikey said:

I see what you mean Kilrahi, but Phil said it's the same "exact" chips. I don't mean to speak for him but that means to me it's the same "exact" chips speed and specs wise.

After reading what he writes here for years I wouldn't think he meant anything else.

 

I also expect that you can't really compare general computer chip architecture and speeds to something like a SHARC since they operate so differently and are applied so differently.  The SHARC architecture provides for simultaneous parallel processing of data and instructions through an internal bus in order to achieve real-time processing which is very different from that of a general computer that uses an external bus to access memory and operate in a more sequential manor.

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15 hours ago, Kilrahi said:

 

By the way Phil, do you know if the chips have the same GHz power or whatever the SHARCs are based on?

 

I understand they're both SHARCS, but in the world of computer processing that doesn't necessarily mean they're the same SHARC. I have a PC today with an I7 that runs circles around another I got in 2010 with an I7. 

 

1 hour ago, spikey said:

I see what you mean Kilrahi, but Phil said it's the same "exact" chips. I don't mean to speak for him but that means to me it's the same "exact" chips speed and specs wise.

After reading what he writes here for years I wouldn't think he meant anything else.

 

So, I double-checked this, and I have to backtrack a little. I originally misunderstood something that Cliff from Fractal wrote. He said that the FM3 has essentially the just a little processing power as the AX8, and I took that to mean they were using the same SHARC chips (plus the ARM chip mentioned below). Apparently the FM3 is using two SHARC+ chips. They aren't the exact same chips, but they provide almost the exact same MFLOPS value as the SHARC chips used in the Helix and the AX8. There are some architectural differences in the chips, but one of the main things the SHARC+ allows is processing at 64-bit floating point (which I don't believe Fractal is actually doing with the FM3 - there doesn't seem to be any benefit in doing so, and it would really eat up a lot of processing power). They also have a separate ARM processor in the FM3 that is handling some of the housekeeping type tasks, namely the graphics.

 

In any case, my point is that the SHARC chips the Helix uses aren't really outdated, and I don't think that Analog Devices is selling an upgraded version of them yet. These dedicated processors move at a completely different development pace than the processors found in laptops and whatnot.

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Thanks for clarifying about the chips (in Helix). 

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22 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

 

I also expect that you can't really compare general computer chip architecture and speeds to something like a SHARC since they operate so differently and are applied so differently.  The SHARC architecture provides for simultaneous parallel processing of data and instructions through an internal bus in order to achieve real-time processing which is very different from that of a general computer that uses an external bus to access memory and operate in a more sequential manor.

 

So then it's safe to say that the A to D and D to A conversion/processing is faster in these chips, versus say what a fast "gaming" computer might have in it?

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1 hour ago, spikey said:

 

So then it's safe to say that the A to D and D to A conversion/processing is faster in these chips, versus say what a fast "gaming" computer might have in it?

 

I'm sure it would be, although I don't know if the Sharc is used for A/D and D/A or if they have a dedicated converter since I would think the Sharc is primarily focused on the mathematical manipulations on the digital stream.  It's all guesswork from the outside.

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2 hours ago, spikey said:

 

So then it's safe to say that the A to D and D to A conversion/processing is faster in these chips, versus say what a fast "gaming" computer might have in it?

 

The conversion happens in, well, the converters. Those are upstream of the processor. The Helix is still using excellent Cirrus converters - the same that are used in the Axe FX III, fwiw. Quality converters are pretty much a commodity item now. It’s not really the thing making or breaking audio quality the way it used to be. 

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On 6/7/2019 at 2:27 PM, cruisinon2 said:

Where's the best place in the chain for my Heisenberg compensator? ;)

 

depends where you put the flux capacitor.  you did use green gaffer tape?

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On 6/3/2019 at 11:56 PM, PeterHamm said:

I believe that
1. There will not be a "Helix 2". Not for at least a few years. The latest HX product is pretty new, and they are still able to add SO much. It was built to last WAY more than any other product they've ever made.
2. belly-aching and worrying about it is a bad reason to not buy something that WILL let you make music TODAY.


For 1 from a technical perspective I think you're spot on, Peter.  I'm thinking from a marketing angle here - there are a bunch of pros who use the Helix, and Line 6 (possibly) lose out to Fractal from that 'word of mouth cool' perspective.  Something at the £2k price point would put them right in that game: maybe as a Floor+ in addition to the current models; maybe they just upgrade the Rack.  It just feels like there is still money on the table ...

And as for 2 - absolutely.  I've gigged/rehearsed/recorded with my LT for well over a year now from orchestra pit work through jam-oriented music to a prog three piece where it not only provides all my guitars but mixes in a VG99 for COSM synths/acoustics and acts as an audio/midi interface for MainStage and my Midi Bass pedals.  Probably the best bit of guitar kit I've ever bought.

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16 minutes ago, arkieboy said:

...there are a bunch of pros who use the Helix, and Line 6 (possibly) lose out to Fractal from that 'word of mouth cool' perspective...

 

I disagree strongly that this is even a factor, because I don't think Helix and Fractal compete like we fan boys think they do. Fractal is a very small company that makes a niche product that you can't buy in a store. Line 6 are now one of the biggest music technology companies going, and Helix is more of a mainstream product in that world.

 

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1 hour ago, PeterHamm said:

 

I disagree strongly that this is even a factor, because I don't think Helix and Fractal compete like we fan boys think they do. Fractal is a very small company that makes a niche product that you can't buy in a store. Line 6 are now one of the biggest music technology companies going, and Helix is more of a mainstream product in that world.

 


And again a very fair and valid point.  To which I'd say Yamaha as a music company have a foot in every market segment for pretty much every product: Pacifica from £150 through to a custom shop order; woodwinds from a £10 recorder to Selmer competitive saxes; or keyboards from a £100 PSR through to a concert grand worthy of a top classical venue.  Who knows what directives they've set Line 6?

But we're disappearing down a rabbit hole and I'm being a bit of a troll.  The OPs question is 'should I delay my purchase in the anticipation of new product'?  You say no; I say no - unless you're loaded! :-)

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On 5/29/2019 at 1:44 PM, Guitarzman said:

I'm guessing Helix 2 is at least a year away.. Since line 6 has been integrating their complete Helix line into Helix core  / Helix  ,,LT ,  Helix Stomp , Hlx Effects and Native and with 2.80 and 3.0  firmware updates coming out soon.... Helix 2 should still be a while yet imo ,,,,. Line 6 has also introduced the Powercab & PC + that's still fairly new on the market, so who knows what's next but looking forward to some great things from L6 in the next few years!!..

Has anyone heard anything more about release Dates of 2.8 and 3.0 Updates??

 

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7 hours ago, Marekski said:

Has anyone heard anything more about release Dates of 2.8 and 3.0 Updates??

 

 

Hi Marekski,

 

You are asking in the wrong thread.

 

You really should read this one:

 

 

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