Paying for patches and the "sense of community"

[HonestOpinion]

Which means you could buy a little over 3 gallons of gas there as compared to 10 or more here in the states... So much for a living wage...  ;)

 

True, gas is expensive but if you live in Luxembourg you can circumnavigate your whole country on 1/2 a liter in your tiny car that gets 5,000 kilometers per liter (tough to fit the PA in though), most Europeans aren't driving Ford F-Series pickups. ;)  Plus, the train systems are extensive and a great way to get around.

[ronnief83]

I might be missing somethings in this topic...

So, the commercial patches exist because gas is expensive in Luxembourg?

:D

[ricstudioc]

But patches are already DONE.

First of all you did it for yourself.

Why ask "small fee" for these patches? To compensate time which you spent on doing something for yourself? :)

It's not the same as paying for guitar lesson at ALL, as in case of a guitar lesson teacher spend his own time exclusively on you. :)

 

No offense.

Just don't understand this kind of thinking.

[cruisinon2]

I might be missing somethings in this topic...

So, the commercial patches exist because gas is expensive in Luxembourg?

:D

Now you're catching on...;)

 

That interpretation is about as useful as anything else that's come out of this thread, lol.

 

Yes, commercially available patches exist. No, I don't want any. I also don't want lima beans, benzene, or dredging equipment....so I don't buy those things either. Problem solved...but there will always be those who are determined to be offended, merely because certain things exist, even if it doesn't impact their daily life in any measurable way.

[ricstudioc]

 I also don't want lima beans, benzene, or dredging equipment....so I don't buy those things either.

LOL!

 

...though if you've never tried benzene-marinated lima beans, you've deprived yourself of a culinary adventure.  Just don't cook'em over an open flame....

[ronnief83]

This thread goes on just because we do not have new firmware update ;)

[HonestOpinion]

This thread goes on just because we do not have new firmware update ;)

 

So true, I think there are several threads that fit this description. ;) 

[LouDem]

I was too. Remember me?????  "Gangsterusa"  I've contributed my free patches there and here on the old Line 6 forums. I've shared my patches starting from the POD XT-Live, the POD X3-Live, the POD-HD, POD HD500, POD HD500X. I've even uploaded free tracks to my upcoming albums on the old Line 6 forums. You new guys probably weren't around then.  I'm talking about 7 and even up to 5 years ago. That's how long I've been using Line 6 products and contributing to the community!! How about you guys??

 

Well said!

 

Glenn's patches are stellar in my opinion, especially the boutique collection. I barely had to adjust levels and eq. In fact, I used one live last weekend and got nothing but compliments on my tone. I also make my own patches. I didn't buy these to learn as much as to enjoy the great tone that Glenn demonstrated In his videos. Glenn is a huge talent, and a generally nice, professional guy, who responded to two separate inquiries within hours. I would not hesitate to recommend his patches for any device.

[cruisinon2]

So true, I think there are several threads that fit this description. ;)

Which of course begs the question, which is worse? The go nowhere, accomplish nothing, "if Helix is played in a forest" threads, or the "I've been waiting for new firmware for 6 months, and all I get is THIS?!?!" threads...we'll be drowning in the latter in another couple of weeks.

[robbieb61]

I'm pissed. 

I now realize that every amp I ever owned...from Mesa, to Marshall, to Bogner, and every amp in between...NEVER had a single "update"!!!

I was being ripped off for the last 30 years and didn't even know it!  :angry:

[HonestOpinion]

I'm pissed. 

 

I now realize that every amp I ever owned...from Mesa, to Marshall, to Bogner, and every amp in between...NEVER had a single "update"!!!

 

I was being ripped off for the last 30 years and didn't even know it!  :angry:

 

Just wait until they have a real 'Double Helix' self evolving 'learning' amp, a hybrid constructed of unstable DNA and technology stolen from a secret Soviet lab and chess camp left over from the Cold War, and it just mutates spontaneously overnight with no firmware update required as your Mesa, Marshall, and Bogner cower in the corner horrified and suffering from low self-esteem issues.  :o

[spikey]

Now you're catching on... ;)

 

That interpretation is about as useful as anything else that's come out of this thread, lol.

Problem solved...but there will always be those who are determined to be offended, merely because certain things exist, even if it doesn't impact their daily life in any measurable way.

Is it offensive that Im offended because you said things exist that don't impact daily life? 

[duncann]

Just wait until they have a real 'Double Helix' self evolving 'learning' amp, a hybrid constructed of unstable DNA and technology stolen from a secret Soviet lab and chess camp left over from the Cold War, and it just mutates spontaneously overnight with no firmware update required as your Mesa, Marshall, and Bogner cower in the corner horrified and suffering from low self-esteem issues.  :o

 

Bah! Any self-respecting, evolving guitar modeler wouldn't take overnight. It shall be adding features, including hardware, at the constant rate of one per femtosecond, at least.

[FarleyUK]

As a new user of FrFr, I've already purchased Glen's patches - as I have never used the Helix's amp or cab models, and to be honest, I don't have a lot fo time to put into setting them up from scratch. From going by the reviews and vids, they sound awesome, so I happily purchased them. As well as that, I think it's interesting to see how people have set their routing / paths up as well (kind of like a paid-for educational experience...!).

So yeah, I'm happy with paying for top-quality patches; on the caveat they ARE, actually, 'top-quality'.

 

What I DO object to, however, is people charging for access to things like 'special member areas' on Facebook or other forums with regards to the Helix. I personally think that that practice is what detracts from the sense of community, as it's actually actively withholding potential information and help from people unless you pay. With p[atches and presets, you have everything you might need from the get-go, but any 'member area' type payment plans are a different beast entirely.

[HonestOpinion]

Bah! Any self-respecting, evolving guitar modeler wouldn't take overnight. It shall be adding features, including hardware, at the constant rate of one per femtosecond, at least.

 

If we have to redesign our presets hourly, so be it, that is just the price one has to pay for progress. :) 

[ricstudioc]

If we have to redesign our presets hourly, so be it, that is just the price one has to pay for progress. :)

"Ok folks, this next song..."

(Reaches down to adjust something)

"...is something I wrote when..."

(Reaches down to adjust something)

"...my girlfriend broke it off..."

(Reaches down to adjust something)

"...with me after I got drunk and beat..."

(Reaches down to adjust something)

"...her in a game of Monoply."

(Reaches down to adjust something)

"Ready boys?  One, Two..."

(Reaches down to adjust something)

"...Three.."

(Reaches down to adjust something)

 

A quadrillionth of a second is a terrible thing to waste....

[HonestOpinion]

"Ok folks, this next song..."

(Reaches down to adjust something)

"...is something I wrote when..."

(Reaches down to adjust something)

"...my girlfriend broke it off..."

(Reaches down to adjust something)

"...with me after I got drunk and beat..."

(Reaches down to adjust something)

"...her in a game of Monoply."

(Reaches down to adjust something)

"Ready boys?  One, Two..."

(Reaches down to adjust something)

"...Three.."

(Reaches down to adjust something)

 

A quadrillionth of a second is a terrible thing to waste....

 

LOL :D 

[fremen]

after investing in a helix I bit the bullet and purchased the Fremen pack.  The tones were so amazing and so much better than what I could create or find on custom tone, I have to admit, it was wroth every penny as it made my helix sound so much better. 

 

Thanks dude, made my day

[radatats]

What I DO object to, however, is people charging for access to things like 'special member areas' on Facebook or other forums with regards to the Helix. I personally think that that practice is what detracts from the sense of community, as it's actually actively withholding potential information and help from people unless you pay. With p[atches and presets, you have everything you might need from the get-go, but any 'member area' type payment plans are a different beast entirely.

 

I have to disagree here.  The FB group you refer to has probably been the single biggest source of help, info, guidance and community ever for any piece of gear from any manufacturer.  The guy that put it together and managed it literally spent all day, every day on it out of a love for the gear and the folks that use it.  That group hasn't changed.  He set up a separate members group for those that want one on one help with their gear or their tones.  Nothing secretive about it.  No special tricks there that nobody else knows about.  He found a way to supplement his income by providing personalized assistance to those that need it.  How is that wrong?  

 

If it was a factory sponsored site that required you to pay to join I would agree but this whole idea that individuals shouldn't get paid for their time and work is pretty damn odd.  Nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything.

[HonestOpinion]

What the heck, since this topic is still chugging along, once more into the breach, a few (too many :)) thoughts:

 

​Once you start charging for access or presets in my opinion you should be subject to all the mechanisms that help ensure a reliable product in a consumer marketplace. Some of the things that jump to mind as 'best practices'.

1. Reviews by the users to ensure quality
2. Commercial preset designers should be more talented and expend as much or more time designing commercial presets than the average Joe who is offering them up for free. This helps prevents predatory behavior by hacks who seek to capitalize on naïve new users. So far we seem to have been lucky with this as the reviews for the primary sellers here seem to be overwhelmingly positive.
3. You stand behind your product in the event that you have a release with technical issues.
4. You charge a reasonable fee (whatever that is, not just whatever the market will bear although that is often a good indicator)
5. You offer a modicum of support for your product in regards to implementation through videos, email, FAQs, perhaps phone, etc..
6. You design your presets with an eye towards them being adaptable to a multitude of configurations such that someone doesn't see a wonderful video, purchase your product, and then discover that a satisfactory sound can only be attained with precisely the same equipment used in your video. If your presets are specific to certain hardware configurations then your advertising material should say so. If your presets can be adapted to a variety of hardware (e.g. amp, powered speaker, FRFR, MIDI devices, etc.) you may need to include specific instructions or guidance on how to achieve this.
7. Ongoing support may/should include updating of previous preset packs that are reasonably current when the Helix is updated.  A good example of this might be the addition of Snapshots or changes to effects such as a change in the Pitch block. This ongoing support may include an 'upgrade' or 'maintenance' fee similar to the way many software companies support their products through various versions of an OS or when a new version of their software is released. In other words, existing customers should be valued and not be necessarily charged full price (or sometimes any price) for a 'maintenance' level release. Significant preset package upgrades may or may not warrant an entirely new purchase. Granted, it is legitimate to age out support and upgrades for older preset packages just as other companies sunset older software versions.

 

 

A couple of pitfalls I see with commercial preset selling. I am not implying these should or could in any way stop the selling of presets. They are just issues to be aware of:

Innovation should not be stifled in order to preserve old preset packs unchanged although it should be a consideration and the impact to pre-existing presets should be minimized wherever possible. Line6 seems to have an informal relationship, maybe even formal in a couple of instances, with commercial preset designers. I believe the perception, probably justifiable in many cases is that these preset sellers have a symbiotic relationship with Line6 in that their videos, posts, and custom presets not only educate their user base but also assist in selling the Helix. They also aid in retention of customers who might be encouraged to return or review the Helix negatively if not for the assistance they received in getting up to speed with commercial presets. My point is that this relationship with preset designers should be leveraged with Non-disclosure agreements (NDAs) such that when there are changes in upcoming firmware that might impact preset design, they can give these designers a heads-up. Again, this is a common practice where for instance Apple or Microsoft alert software companies to upcoming changes to the OS that may impact them. Often a pre-release version of the new OS is provided to the software manufacturer to design their new applications on.

 

The reason this can be such a critical relationship is that for example if you have a significant improvement being made to for instance a Pitch block or other functionality, all of a sudden you may start getting pushback from the preset designers as well as the people who have purchased them as they are faced with the possibility of having to modify their presets, or worse yet, the presets can become obsolete. We see that same sort or pushback in some cases from the wider user base as well who have not purchased presets but they also do not want to go through a redesign of their self-constructed presets. This is part of a delicate balance that is a challenge for all the modeler companies in providing innovation while not requiring constant reworking and redesign of presets. This tension extends to the entire user base and is not exclusive to those selling commercial presets. My point is that none of us should want to see innovation stifled solely for the sake of preserving older presets although minimizing impact to them is an important concern. This is particularly true of presets that are sold early in the Helix's lifecycle while there is still a high level of change and improvement to the firmware. We should not be stuck forever with the state of the Helix at initial release simply to save the effort of digging in and perhaps making minimal changes to older presets.

 

I do think it is important to maintain a sense of community to encourage the free exchange of ideas and innovation. There is room as well for the best of the community to be rewarded financially for efforts that go above and beyond. We should just be careful to maintain that balance. I am for some reason reminded of one of my pet peeves, a bit off topic, and perhaps at best loosely related to this topic - the addition of lanes to crowded public highways that can only be accessed with a paid 'Fastpass'. This in my opinion stratifies drivers into the 'haves' and 'have-nots', those who can afford not to sit in traffic and those who cannot. This IMHO violates the spirit of 'public transportation'. What I am getting at is that I hope their will always be adequate free resources for those who cannot afford the extra expenditures that prevent them from being perpetually in the 'slow lane'. Right now I believe we have that balance and I think we always will.

 

 

 

 

Note: One thing that strikes me as a difference between commercial preset sales and many other kinds of software/template sales is the following. Most people who buy a piece of software are not capable of dissecting that software and using it to write better software of their own. This is not the case with presets. There is an educational aspect to presets that can give them extra value to be used as a foundation for training users to design their own, even if the preset is finally rendered obsolete by firmware advances. Teach a man to fish...

 

 

Lastly, in the interests of disclosure, I have never purchased a preset package and do not currently feel so inclined but I would never rule it out if I found a compelling need or interest in one. I just prefer designing my own although I recognize that they may not be as good as some of the ones available for purchase.

[cruisinon2]

What the heck, since this topic is still chugging along, once more into the breach, a few thoughts:

 

​Once you start charging for access or presets in my opinion you should be subject to all the mechanisms that help ensure a reliable product in a consumer market place. Some of the things that jump to mind as 'best practices'.

• Reviews by the users to ensure quality
• Commercial preset designers should be more talented and expend as much or more time designing commercial presets than the average Joe who is offering them up for free. This helps prevents predatory behavior by hacks who seek to capitalize on naïve new users. So far we seem to have been lucky with this as the reviews for the primary sellers here seem to be overwhelmingly positive.
• You stand behind your product in the event that you have a release with technical issues.
• You charge a reasonable fee (whatever that is, not just whatever the market will bear although that is often a good indicator)
• You offer a modicum of support for your product in regards to implementation through videos, email, FAQs, perhaps phone, etc..
• You design your presets with an eye towards them being adaptable to a multitude of configurations such that someone doesn't see a wonderful video, purchase your product, and then discover that a satisfactory sound can only be attained with precisely the same equipment used in your video. If your presets are specific to certain hardware configurations then your advertising material should say so. If your presets can be adapted to a variety of hardware (e.g. amp, powered speaker, FRFR, MIDI devices, etc.) you may need to include specific instructions or guidance on how to achieve this.
• Ongoing support may/should include updating of previous preset packs that are reasonably current when the Helix is updated. A good example of this might be the addition of Snapshots or changes to effects such as a change in the Pitch block. This ongoing support may include an 'upgrade' or 'maintenance' fee similar to the way many software companies support their products through various versions of an OS or when a new version of their software is released. In other words, existing customers should be valued and not be necessarily charged full price (or sometimes any price) for a 'maintenance' level release. Significant preset package upgrades may or may not warrant an entirely new purchase. Granted, it is legitimate to age out support and upgrades for older preset packages just as other companies sunset older software versions.

Which is all wonderful...but about as likely as waking up tomorrow morning with your head sewn to the pillow.

[HonestOpinion]

Which is all wonderful...but about as likely as waking up tomorrow morning with your head sewn to the pillow.

 

LOL, there have been a few drool filled nights that made mornings feel like that pillow scenario you describe.  :huh:   Like the larger marketplace, there will be some, perhaps most, that adhere to the bulk of that list and a few of the usual bad actors.

[pb-272]

It's 22 minutes past ten in the morning here in Sydney, it's 36 degrees Celsius. I'm going to pop to the beach where I'm going to boil the ocean, just as this thread has done.

 

Then.....

 

I'm gonna come home plug in the Helix, turn it up loud, and play ummmmmm......today I'm gonna play the Trainwreck amp that Glenn built.....I'm not gonna worry about his business model, I'm just gonna play...:::

[GlennDeLaune]

It's 22 minutes past ten in the morning here in Sydney, it's 36 degrees Celsius. I'm going to pop to the beach where I'm going to boil the ocean, just as this thread has done.

 

Then.....

 

I'm gonna come home plug in the Helix, turn it up loud, and play ummmmmm......today I'm gonna play the Trainwreck amp that Glenn built.....I'm not gonna worry about his business model, I'm just gonna play...:::

Wow that does sound like a great day!! Play your heart out man!!   Oh . . .  Thank you guys so much for all the kind words and continued support. I really appreciate all of you!!

[drewherring12]

Well, this thread is exactly what I expected. For some reason one of the few things that really stuck with me from college were the biases I learned about in marketing classes. If I were teaching such a class, this thread would be perfect to illustrate choice-supportive bias, placebo effect, and the bandwagon effect. I'm not going to weigh in either way on how I feel about pay-for-play patches but I will say that this thread has been quite entertaining, and also enlightening. I think one could really find new unexplored markets to exploit by simply searching for intangible qualities, such as "tone". Who would have ever thunk people would actually make good money selling patches for a guitar processor? 2016, everybody.  

[cruisinon2]

Well, this thread is exactly what I expected. For some reason one of the few things that really stuck with me from college were the biases I learned about in marketing classes. If I were teaching such a class, this thread would be perfect to illustrate choice-supportive bias, placebo effect, and the bandwagon effect. I'm not going to weigh in either way on how I feel about pay-for-play patches but I will say that this thread has been quite entertaining, and also enlightening. I think one could really find new unexplored markets to exploit by simply searching for intangible qualities, such as "tone". Who would have ever thunk people would actually make good money selling patches for a guitar processor? 2016, everybody.

Lol...while it's been updated for the digital age, this is hardly a new phenomenon. With a good enough sales pitch, snazzy packaging, and the occasional "sale", one could successfully market laminated rat turds. People will buy anything.

 

"Pet Rock", anyone? ;)

[datacommando]

Lol...while it's been updated for the digital age, this is hardly a new phenomenon. With a good enough sales pitch, snazzy packaging, and the occasional "sale", you could sell laminated rat turds. People will buy anything.

 

"Pet Rock", anyone? ;)

LMAO, once again.

 

Did you hear about the guy who was selling rat turds as "Learning Pills" for $1,000 each. For a while lots of people bought into it and he sold hundreds. Then one guy tried one, but he immediately spat it out. "Tastes like rat $hit!" he exclaimed, to which the seller replied, "Now you're learning!"

 

 

It really is all Snake Oil ;)

[maxnew40]

I don't play gigs for free, and if I were to spend many hours working on and perfecting a product or service that also required the use of some of my particular experience to pull off I would probably not give it away for free unless I were wealthy enough to not need additional income.

 

-Max

[jasdadgad]

I do play gigs for free.

 

And I pay money for CDs (mp3s) of musicians I like, even though I subscribe to Spotify.  They deserve the money.

 

And I pay for several on-line newspapers.

 

And I've bought several of Glenn's packages.  I don't use them (except for the Dumble IR) but I want Glenn to keep doing what he's doing, just like I want the above-mentioned musicians to keep doing what they're doing.

 

Where I live, the loudest way to show my appreciation is to send money.

[GlennDeLaune]

Not too long ago, somebody asked about a Mick Jones Foreigner tone here on the boards. Here was my post. Not sure how many people snatched it but it's still live on my server. So, since this thread has gotten so much attention I thought I'd share it here too.

 

Here was my post a couple months ago:

 

"Just for fun!! Here is my Mick Jones Foreigner patch. It uses a Custom IR I created from Mick's isolated guitar track for this song.

https://soundcloud.c...er-guitar-sound

 

 

If you want to try it out be my guest. Here is the download link. https://www.glenndel...HELIX-PATCH.zip

 

Thank you guys so much for your continued support.  Enjoy . . . :-)  Oh, you'll need a Les Paul or even an Epi LP will get you there too.  You know you can use that IR on any of your other patches. You'll be surprised what it does.

[fiveways]

I'd probably debate buying patches made by someone like Kevin Shields or Robert Fripp if you could convince either of them to write a banks worth.  (undoubtable shields would take 20 years to write his and only the second half of them would be really good by the time it was released).  Truth is, few people write really tortured fx path based stuff with no amp modelling, and it seems weird to me to buy someone else original sounds (because half of the world of guitar is sculpting cool lollipoping tones).  Sounds with custom IR's?  if i wanted the IR's added to my collection, or found myself in a position of needing those sounds, i have zero issues with paying for them.  Grabbing a tone match pack though?  Probably not.  I figure part of being in a cover band is learning how the player operated both as a player and with his tools, so I'd build my own and figure it out that way.

In the end, some people just wanna play, some people love writing patches.  It also depends on how you write, if you focus on the notes and find a sound after, or you start with a sound and find the notes that work for said sound.  No right or wrong.

[spikey]

most Europeans aren't driving Ford F-Series pickups. ;)  Plus, the train systems are extensive and a great way to get around.

Shame, Well when they get tired of those little tin cans in Europe, tell them to ford up if they can afford the gas. Closest train for a human to ride on is 400 miles or so (and you can almost see that far). They just haul freight here.

[leadtooth]

My Helix is new, I am 50 now, been playing since I was 7. My ears are not what they used to be, I have had massive illnesses to deal with, and my life currently is stressful and short on time. I also play on the worship team at church. I needed some patches I could use right away that I found to be high quality and well made. Thus, I chose to buy Glenn's patches and I do not regret the purchases I made one bit. 

 

I will create my own patches that I will use mainly but that is something I need extensive time to do. I am not new to modeling and spent hundreds of hours trying to tweak the pods and HD's and coming up short in comparison to my tubes and pedal-boards. The Helix is finally a unit I am very happy with and I don't hear that digital tin sound. No matter the case, however, in the end its my money and I choose where and how I decide to spend it.

 

Glenn's patches are awesome by the way but I don't play metal anymore either. I do worship, blues, rock,  fusion, progressive, funk, etc. I can do all that with many of his patches. I have not tried Fremen's patches and recently just heard of them. I have not found any free patches to my liking but one which is a straight up dist/od setup with zero effects. Something I can easily make on my own.

[maxnew40]

I have bought a couple of Glenn's packages and one from Scott Michael Minchk. I don't use any of the packages I downloaded for live performance, but I don't feel like I overpaid or was ripped off in any way. I learned from each of those tones that I paid for.

 

-Max

[PierM]

I have zero issues with people asking money for their work. My personal experience is that they probably won't work as teased because of all Non-Helix variables. Guitar, pickup, speakers, style, room/ambient and sometimes, firmware version which does f--k up the entire patch.

 

I tried once, buying a jazz tone pack from Scott, and none of them was barely usable for me, while they were sounding nice on the tease video. Was also an odd routing style which does not work for me. Also, the patch creation is one of the best parts of creating a tone. A pleasure with the Helix interface.

[PeterHamm]

...I tried once, buying a jazz tone pack from Scott, and none of them was barely usable for me, while they were sounding nice on the tease video. Was also an odd routing style which does not work for me. Also, the patch creation is one of the best parts of creating a tone. A pleasure with the Helix interface.

 

 

I am thrilled that buying these patches from guys who know what they are doing works for some people, but I am with you. I've never met a patch that worked for me that I didn't create from scratch.

 

I was (and am still) never like that with synth patches, though.

[archisc]

If people don't buy it... great... understood...

 

For the rest of us: Thank you to all people selling top notch patches...

[cruisinon2]

I am thrilled that buying these patches from guys who know what they are doing works for some people, but I am with you. I've never met a patch that worked for me that I didn't create from scratch.

 

I don't get it either. I can wear a Jersey with #42 on it, but it won't make me Jackie Robinson...

[dickbanks]

I bought Glenn's patches really for the express reason that I could watch him go through them one by one on you-tube to see how they sound with a seasoned professional. To me they were a much more valuable starting point than the stock presets, and I learned a ton about IRs, snapshots, etc.

 

Now I really don't use any of those whole patches, but I use bits and pieces of a lot of them. Now I prefer to build my own from scratch--now that I know what the unit is capable of.

 

For me it was all about maximizing time playing, and minimizing time spent twiddling with electronics...

[jimbojamz]

I don't have the time, skill, or patience to create quality tones from scratch. I have gladly paid for many, and will continue to do so. I seldom have to do much more than a little tweaking to get them just right for me. 

what he said^^^^