How to Respond When The Bass Player Doesn't Like Your Helix

[talonmm]

I received an email from my bass player today and I responded to him but probably was not able to articulate myself well enough due to being new to studios and pa systems.

 

I'd like some input on his concerns...  (his email is below)

 

First some helpful background....

 

I am the only guitar player in a new band and things are off to a good start.  we play popular classic Rock.  We're all over the place musically, so I need the helix (I would use it anyway as I am a big fan of it) to play a wide range of tones, from Hendrix, to soft non distortion tones, to early 60's, 80's, and things like Plush from the Stone Temple Pilots.

 

My tones are top notch - I've downloaded and tweaked the best Helix tones on this site, plus I purchased the Fremen pack and use them quite a bit.

 

We played in a new rehearsal studio last evening and the helix did not sound great through the pa system (the culprit was probably the pa system or the speakers).

 

Any thoughts of what the Bass player thinks I should do at future rehearsals?

 

His email:

 

=================================================

 

I'm familiar with the current multi-effects processors out there, the LIne 6 Helix LT, for example, provides some 67 amp models, 37 cabinet models, etc. I get the feeling that you're under the wrong impression as to what these amp models are for: they're for recording, playing straight into the console. These effects units, when deployed for live performance, do not need modeling. Amp modeling might work in a rehearsal studio because the PA is not really a PA, it's an over-glorified monitor system, and the speakers are pointing at us. In a live situation, the PA is facing the audience, and we won't be able to hear you. You won't be able to hear you. In a live performance, you should still use an amp, and since these rehearsal studios have an abundance of Marshalls, Blackstars, etc, there's no reason not to use them. In fact, we need to rehearse in real-world conditions as much as possible. 

 

You may be under the belief that these multi effects MUST be plugged into a mixer, but that is simply not the case. It might be helpful to take a closer look at the variety configurations that can be used that do not use amp modeling. Amp modeling is only to be used when using a real amp is not practical, rare as those occasions may be.Your multi-effects has a lot more than amp modeling, and these effects can be used without modeling, which is preferable. Think about it, why simulate a Marshall when you actually have a Marshall? Simulated amps and cabs are never as good as the real thing, no matter what the manufacturer claims.

 

Looking ahead, when we play out we will probably not have the luxury of a super monitor system. Musicians need an amplifier on stage mostly so they and the other performers can hear themselves play. You also need speaker presence for sustain. We generally don't re-organize the entire sound reinforcement system simply to accommodate amp modeling, that would be the tail wagging the dog. I know you paid a lot for the system, and you want to get the most out of it, but amp modeling is mostly a sales gimmick and doesn't serve much purpose in the real world. You do have lots of other great effects there, I'm only suggesting you look at ways to use them without modeling. Talk to the guitar guy at Sam Ash, or ask some questions on the guitar forums, you may be surprised what you hear. No one uses amp modeling for live performance. I saw Eddie Van Halen at Jones Beach and I could see the mic in front of one of his amps.

 

I'm not trying to rant, I just don't want to take up time in the studio discussing it. Please think about it, and read about it.

 

==========================================

[robbieb61]

My guess is your bass player doesn't like you. :(

Not joking. I've played (as you probably have too) with hundreds of musicians in bands over the years. And anyone who made that kind of statement to me would have also already started drama by going to all the other band members and talking about it behind your back. 
I'd start looking for a new band. 
I'd also get some kind of speaker onstage with you anyway. Plenty of good powered monitors and FRFR stuff, or even running into the effects return of a guitar amp. You don't want to have to depend on somebody else to get YOUR sound you want and need to hear onstage. 

Best of luck to you. 

[jbuhajla]

 When you say your tones are top notch, do you refer to when you create them at home? Have you played out with these tones before and they are great? If you just had a single issue not sounding good at a new rehearsal facility, were you playing through a different PA than usual?

 

Probably need some additional info to give you relevant feedback. 

[WithALoudNoise]

Absolutely, undeniably, and completely untrue.  I would keep the Helix and think about replacing your bass player. Granted, you need to spend time with the Helix to get the most out of it.  I have used it with IEMs, Stagesource speakers, FOH to a Behringer x32 and 4CM to a 5150 combo and all have provided a great sound with the proper tweaking.

[ricstudioc]

First, impulsive response - to steal a phrase from one of my bass players' T-shirts:  Ef you, you Effin' Ef!!.  (His t-shirt isn't cleaned up for family consumption...) (but I DO love it - and he's a big guy and can deal with the offended....)

 

More thoughtfully - While I think Robbie and AGuy are on the right track, jbu makes a good point.  Are you using a PA only at the moment?  No cabs (FRFR assumed) of your own right now?  I'll give your guy this much - point sourcing on stage CAN be an issue, folks just get used to hearing things from a certain perspective.  (Not that he shouldn't learn to adapt - but it is what it is)  And if you're not typically running your own sound system, monitor mixes can be hit and miss. Also don't you want a discrete source for your sound - a cab you can lean into for that feedback?  From the git-go I've used a pair of FRFRs, typically in front of me in floor monitor configuration, tho my band has discrete monitor zones.  Smaller places I've just set'em up in a backline - something like the Alto TS210s have more than enough power.  So - mix and match per need.

 

On second thought - nahhhh.  Go with the first, above.  He's being a weenie...  Send him any of the zillion Youtubes of gigging pros who are using Helix (or AxeFx, or Kemper), and tell him to get into the 21st freakin' century.

[benlampard]

Sounds like a real pr*ck to me.

 

Any number of pro bands use modelling, so that's a non-starter. Congrats on him seeing a mic at a Van Halen gig, he's evidently very proud of that, but the fact is that with Fractal, Kemper and L6 all making such killer products it's much easier to fly a modeller around the globe than a stack. If they weren't up to the task, they wouldn't get used.

 

If the problem is monitoring . . . what exactly is a super-pro setup? If you have any monitoring at all then there's no problem - I've played plenty of shows like that, and it's fine. In fact, without competing stage volumes it makes managing onstage monitoring a lot easier.

 

Are you going to have a great soundguy at every show, who will use the same mic in the exact same position? Will you ever share cabs? If not, then there's no consistency in your sound. Helix can give you this - you'll always have the exact same tone, every single gig you do.

 

Why simulate a Marshall? Well, aside from the beauty of not having to carry the f*cking thing around everywhere, you can instantly switch it to a Fender, or a Matchless . . . and you can adjust any part of it at any point.

 

Not a leg to stand on, just wants to make out like he knows more than you.

[brue58ski]

He doesn't not know what he is talking about. For one thing, modelers give you a more consistent out front sound since you are not relying on a sound gut using the same mic and placing it in the same position as the last sound guy didi. Which is what you are simulating anyway. You're not simulating an amp, you're simulating the microphone that is up next to the amp. Tell him to check this pic out.

 

http://www.metalinjection.net/latest-news/drama/why-black-veil-brides-fake-amps-are-no-big-deal

 

 

They may not be using an amp simulator but they're definitely not using these to monitor the sound. They are probably using wedges which would use...wait for it....the miked amp under the stage which is.... wait for it....what the Helix simulates but again, results in a more consistent sound. This would take a lot longer to get into than I have time for but his opinion is old and outdated and is just wrong. Just search these threads. There are lots of "used my Helix for the first time direct" posts that prove how wrong he is. But he also sounds like someone who isn't very open minded about this at all.

[HonestOpinion]

It sounds like your bass player just did not like your tone through the PA and/or stage monitor. Instead of making suggestions on what he would like to hear, he just teed off with one incorrect assertion after another, most egregiously the patently false - "No one uses amp modeling for live performance". That is just flat out wrong! I do like using a monitor of some kind onstage, I prefer an FRFR, although it can also be your vocal monitor with a feed from the mixing console, IEMs, or a guitar amp.  IEMs unfortunately don't allow you to generate feedback. I agree with others here, if you can't educate this fellow, come to a compromise, and get to a sound you both like, playing with the equipment you want to play through, you might want to consider a different band or bass player.

[mrkphpps]

I remember playing live one day with my HD500 - relying completely on PA and monitor.  It was really interesting when the monitor failed and I had to rely on the sound of the PA reflected back from the room...

 

I'd have something on stage - but FRFR works and allows for you hearing a similar sound to the one used in the PA.

 

Just checking, your tones are tweaked at the volume the band plays at?

 

If you're practicing regularly at the same place, maybe it's worth a separate session to get the sound right so your friendly bass player can't challenge in this way.  In my opinion, the Helix can do this well enough that no audience member will know the difference.

[shanecgriffo]

there are a few videos/ photos of people who use them live.. i'd collect them all in an email and send them.. i wouldn't even bother writing anything.. the guy is just being a bit too lordy..

off the top of my head there was a guy from king crimson, guitarist from blue oyster cult , a good photo was posted here of a guest artist playing onstage with john mayer i think (shot from behind showing helix) haha not so good with remembering the names sorry.. you could also add a few people who use kempers/axe fx seeing as he takes aim at modellers in general

[strabes]

I have never had anyone react to my digital stuff like that. Every single time they are blown away, even if they are pretty serious gear snobs. Are you sure your tones are good? It would be a good idea to bring your own monitor. A DBR10 is only $400 and the upgraded DXR12 is only a little more. Either way, I'd add to this list and shoot it back to him. The guy is clueless. 

 

Helix:

Thrice: https://www.instagram.com/p/BWT9wcvlL9a/?taken-by=thrice

http://line6.com/artists/

 

Kemper

Muse: http://www.musewiki.org/Kemper_Profiling_Amplifier

https://www.kemper-amps.com/artist-gallery

 

Fractal:

http://www.fractalaudio.com/artists.php

[cruisinon2]

Lovely... passive-aggressive people are such a joy to be around. Even more awesome when it's a band-mate. Give him an enema, then send him on a 10 mile hike...he's a schmuck, and doesn't actually "know" anything about modeling technology.

[shanecgriffo]

definitely a good idea to have some sort of decent monitor sitting behind you in place of an amp so you get some good stage fill

[TLF2007]

OK. - I play bass for 2 sets and guitar for 1 set in a band where there is another guitar player and a harmonica/key player and I use the Helix for both my lead/rhythm duties and bass duties (When I play guitar, the key player plays my bass) . I use the helix for bass effects and DI to PA and a Fender Bassman for stage monitoring because its just sounds good. The DI bass and guitar is absolutely better for the FOH guys. Its consistent. I use NO AMP for guitar but there are 2-4 stage monitors for the band to get my tone and the crowd gets PA tone and they have 0 issue with it. Your bass player is misinformed, one-dimensional and maybe a little douchey but sounds like he needs to get more of you on the stage volume!

 

I love not having to pull around a temperamental Marshall but plug both of my bass and guitar effects into ONE unit that efficiently 

[jhinds7]

Thanks for the laugh.  I would have a great time writing the response to that email which concluded with my resignation.  Life is too short to play with douchebags. 

[jhinds7]

I play bass for 2 sets and guitar for 1 set in a band where there is another guitar player and a harmonica/key player and I use the Helix for both my lead/rhythm duties and bass duties (When I play guitar, the key player plays my bass) .

 

Wow, I thought I was the only person doing that.  I split 50/50 on guitar and bass with no other guitar player.  The Helix is fantastic for that.

Our trio does the same thing, but I run everything into the (my) PA which goes with us from gig to gig.

If I didn't own the PA and had to rely on a local soundman, I'd get a lightweight, powered wedge of some type that could handle bass and guitar. 

I don't like to schlep more than I absolutely have to these days. 

[jhinds7]

 

I received an email from my bass player today...

 

PLEASE post this over at TGP in the Digital & Modeling forum :)

[hideout]

Unless it's his band, I say it's your rig and you get to use what you like.  End of discussion.

[talonmm]

wow,  thanks everyone for the feedback and suggestions.  First off, I think I get along fine with the bass player and am very close with the singer and feel a good vibe with the drummer too.  I don't think the bass player dislikes me, I think he just wants what is best for the band and he is concerned if and when we play out that I can be heard so his point is well taken.

 

we did not spend time at rehearsal at all discussing modeling, only when he complained towards the end of the evening and that was a short time.  The other band members I believe are impressed with the tones I can achieve with the stomping of a couple of switches.

 

when we play out, if I plug into the pa, usually the sound person will have monitors and I do bring a hd50 head and cabinet so I will be heard one way or another.

 

I notice my helix at times sounds incredible when I plug into a pa system at other places and pa systems sounds good to very good.  The pa system yesterday sounded just fair,  and we did not take the time to mix the sound well (too much bass coming from the mixer as I recall).

 

So again, yes my tones are very good, the pa system, or perhaps the speakers, needed adjustmentsor the pa system sucked.  we will try a new room next time.

 

And, thanks for confirming I'm not crazy, and that professional acts use the helix.  I couldn't imagine  playing all the songs and tones without a top of the line modeling piece of hardware.

[HonestOpinion]

Btw, when all else fails with an uncooperative and unfamiliar PA and I need a quick fix the Helix's global EQ becomes my best friend. Be prepared to cut to 5k or even below but opt for a setting as high as you can get away with so you don't get a muffled sound and totally kill your high end. You might require a low cut as well. This should at least, in short order, get you a tolerable tone if not ideal.

[specracer986]

I wish you luck, but the bass player has so many wrong opinions, that I doubt you'll ever get him to admit he's that wrong, and I think he is going to be a constant problem

I agree you should have your own playback amp. Preferably a FRFR. I use a DXR12. Unless you're playing in fairly large rooms, you really don't have to be in the FOH, but you can easily do both.

[DarthHollis]

I didn't read anything in that email that said anything about your tone or the quality of the Helix.  Your bass player did not eloquently state his case.  I feel from my experience I can extrapolate a few things:

 

• He couldn't hear you at practice.  You probably need to get an amp, FRFR or some other solution so that he can hear you.
• Your band doesn't have a PA or not a very adequate one.  So far, my band has only played maybe 5% of our gigs where a PA and soundman was provided.  Our PA is very loud with two mains, two subs, and two monitors.  I also have my own two monitors I use to hear my guitar and the band mix.  If you don't have your own dedicated monitor or amp you must get one.  I pretty much feel this way about each band member.  It's your responsibility.
• You're tones were all over the place and some tones don't match with the band.  There is a strong desire to want to have a different tone for every song and try to match the artist.  In my opinion, that couldn't be further from reality.  I use one distorted tone and one clean tone for pretty much 95% of the songs we play.  I do have different presets due to special FX for certain songs (like I might only use a tremelo for one song so that has a special preset).  Keeping your tone more consistent between songs allows the other members of the band to pick you out of the mix easier.  Also, you find your sonic space that way.  Put it this way, does the drummer use a different snare for each song to try to match the tone?

I don't think your bass player is correct in pretty much anything he said.  Bottom line is make sure the band is able to hear you and they are comfortable telling you to change something.  They should be able to say "that song sounds horrible on that guitar can you try another guitar" without fear of hurting your feelings.

The bass player seems pretty set in his ways but many soundmen used to be also.  The prevalence of Kempers, Axe-FX, and Helix have changed many minds in the last 3 + years.

Good luck!

[DarthHollis]

Seeing your follow up post above I would say that I am constantly tweaking our PA and mixing board to make things sound better from gig to gig.  However, your guitar tone should be consistent.  Whatever you use live as your monitor your should be using at practice and rehearsal.  You will be more familiar with the sound (so will the band) and you will also be familiar with problems that might pop up.

You are not crazy.

[TLF2007]

Wow, I thought I was the only person doing that.  I split 50/50 on guitar and bass with no other guitar player.  The Helix is fantastic for that.

Our trio does the same thing, but I run everything into the (my) PA which goes with us from gig to gig.

If I didn't own the PA and had to rely on a local soundman, I'd get a lightweight, powered wedge of some type that could handle bass and guitar. 

I don't like to schlep more than I absolutely have to these days. 

I love the Helix for this purpose. Incredibly powerful to use one effects unit for both. XLR goes to mixer for guitar 1/4" goes to bass amp. I also have 2 Alto TS210's that I multipurpose as a bass amp and simultaneous guitar amp for small acoustic-y gigs. 

[talonmm]

I didn't read anything in that email that said anything about your tone or the quality of the Helix.  Your bass player did not eloquently state his case.  I feel from my experience I can extrapolate a few things:

 

• He couldn't hear you at practice.  You probably need to get an amp, FRFR or some other solution so that he can hear you.
• Your band doesn't have a PA or not a very adequate one.  So far, my band has only played maybe 5% of our gigs where a PA and soundman was provided.  Our PA is very loud with two mains, two subs, and two monitors.  I also have my own two monitors I use to hear my guitar and the band mix.  If you don't have your own dedicated monitor or amp you must get one.  I pretty much feel this way about each band member.  It's your responsibility.
• You're tones were all over the place and some tones don't match with the band.  There is a strong desire to want to have a different tone for every song and try to match the artist.  In my opinion, that couldn't be further from reality.  I use one distorted tone and one clean tone for pretty much 95% of the songs we play.  I do have different presets due to special FX for certain songs (like I might only use a tremelo for one song so that has a special preset).  Keeping your tone more consistent between songs allows the other members of the band to pick you out of the mix easier.  Also, you find your sonic space that way.  Put it this way, does the drummer use a different snare for each song to try to match the tone?

I don't think your bass player is correct in pretty much anything he said.  Bottom line is make sure the band is able to hear you and they are comfortable telling you to change something.  They should be able to say "that song sounds horrible on that guitar can you try another guitar" without fear of hurting your feelings.

The bass player seems pretty set in his ways but many soundmen used to be also.  The prevalence of Kempers, Axe-FX, and Helix have changed many minds in the last 3 + years.

Good luck!

 

thanks for the sound advise!  I will make sure I am heard, I have a feeling I was, but it does not hurt to ask.  My tones were not all over the place, like you, I have a few main ones (3 or so).  I record the sessions and the volumes were ok, but like you said, I'll make sure everyone hears me.  We are far from a gigging band so we use the pa systems at rehearsal studios and look for situations where a pa system would be provided by the bar.  thanks again!

[phil_m]

I have to admit, I lol'ed at the part where he recommended talking to the guitar guy at Sam Ash... and the part about no one using amp modeling live... I'm sure he means well, but I'm not sure what his main concern is. Do you have your own FRFR system or are you using a PA monitor at the rehearsal space?

[Rocco_Crocco]

http://proguitarshop.com/andyscorner/top-10-bassist-jokes

 

10. Did you hear about the bassist who was so out of tune his band noticed?

9. How can you tell the stage is level at a gig?
The bassist drools outta both sides of their mouth.

8. what do you call it when two upright bassists playing in unison?
A minor second.

7. Why couldn’t the bassist get through the front door?
He couldn’t find the key and didn’t know when to come in!

6. A Bass Teacher is excited about getting a new, young student.  The kid is comes in for his first lesson and learns all the notes on the E string. Next week he comes in and the instructor shows him all of the notes on the A string. The third week comes, the teacher is waiting, but  the kid never shows up. Annoyed, he calls him to see where he is. The kid picks up and says, "Oh, sorry man, I got a gig..."

5. Why can’t bassists tell jokes -- Timing.

5. Did you hear about the drummer who locked his keys in his car?
It took him four hours to get the bass player out.

4. How many bassists does it take to change a light bulb?
Just one, but the guitarist has to show him how to do it first.

3. How many country-western bass players does it take to change a light bulb?
1 - 5 - 1 - 5 - 1 - 5

1. A man goes on a vacation to a tropical island.  As soon as the plane lands, he gets off and hears drumming.  At first, he thinks, “This is pretty coolâ€.  He ends up going to a luau and hears the drumming.  He eats lunch and hears the drums.  He goes to the beach and hears the drums.  He tries to sleep, but can’t because of the constant drumming.

The drumming goes on for four days.  The guy has to go down to the front desk because he can’t sleep.  He asks the manager “What is the deal with these drums! Make them stop.  I haven’t got any sleep this whole week!â€

The manager of the hotel says “No. Drums don’t stop.  You don’t want the drums to stop, sir.â€

“Why?â€

“Because when drums stop… Bass solo begins!â€

[ricstudioc]

http://proguitarshop.com/andyscorner/top-10-bassist-jokes

 

10. Did you hear about the bassist who was so out of tune his band noticed?

9. How can you tell the stage is level at a gig?

The bassist drools outta both sides of their mouth.

8. what do you call it when two upright bassists playing in unison?

A minor second.

7. Why couldn’t the bassist get through the front door?

He couldn’t find the key and didn’t know when to come in!

6. A Bass Teacher is excited about getting a new, young student.  The kid is comes in for his first lesson and learns all the notes on the E string. Next week he comes in and the instructor shows him all of the notes on the A string. The third week comes, the teacher is waiting, but  the kid never shows up. Annoyed, he calls him to see where he is. The kid picks up and says, "Oh, sorry man, I got a gig..."

5. Why can’t bassists tell jokes -- Timing.

5. Did you hear about the drummer who locked his keys in his car?

It took him four hours to get the bass player out.

4. How many bassists does it take to change a light bulb?

Just one, but the guitarist has to show him how to do it first.

3. How many country-western bass players does it take to change a light bulb?

1 - 5 - 1 - 5 - 1 - 5

1. A man goes on a vacation to a tropical island.  As soon as the plane lands, he gets off and hears drumming.  At first, he thinks, “This is pretty coolâ€.  He ends up going to a luau and hears the drumming.  He eats lunch and hears the drums.  He goes to the beach and hears the drums.  He tries to sleep, but can’t because of the constant drumming.

The drumming goes on for four days.  The guy has to go down to the front desk because he can’t sleep.  He asks the manager “What is the deal with these drums! Make them stop.  I haven’t got any sleep this whole week!â€

The manager of the hotel says “No. Drums don’t stop.  You don’t want the drums to stop, sir.â€

“Why?â€

“Because when drums stop… Bass solo begins!â€

 Ha!  I was reading down the list and thinking to myself "he's missed the "drums must never stop" gag".  Sorry I underestimated you - I need to work on my patience.  (Though YOU need to work on your sequential numbering...) :rolleyes:

[Karl_Houseknecht]

 

I saw Eddie Van Halen at Jones Beach and I could see the mic in front of one of his amps.

 

I guess he didn't see the iso cab underneath the stage with the real mic'd up speaker in it and not just the fake stage mic. :)

 

Your bass player is being a dork.  But if he really thinks this way and it's really important that you use an amp, use an amp.  If he's still a dork, find another band.

[Rocco_Crocco]

 Ha!  I was reading down the list and thinking to myself "he's missed the "drums must never stop" gag".  Sorry I underestimated you - I need to work on my patience.  (Though YOU need to work on your sequential numbering...) :rolleyes:

I just copied and pasted from the link I provided. If I had written it, there would have been many more mistakes!

[DunedinDragon]

I don't think your bass player is necessarily a dork or has ulterior motives.  He only sounds that way because he still thinks it's 1972.  I would just respond by sending him an invitation to join the rest of us in the new millennium.

 

EDIT:  I would, however, let him know his email has provided us with hours of laughter and good times....;)

[Riki1]

I don't think your bass player is necessarily a dork or has ulterior motives.  He only sounds that way because he still thinks it's 1972.  I would just respond by sending him an invitation to join the rest of us in the new millennium.

 

EDIT:  I would, however, let him know his email has provided us with hours of laughter and good times....;)

^^^^This^^^^^

[spikey]

Amp modeling is only to be used when using a real amp is not practical

 

 

So what century did this guy teleport from?

 

amp modeling is mostly a sales gimmick and doesn't serve much purpose in the real world. 

 

Neither does a Luddite minded know it all wanna be... If he is this way about your setup, he will be that way about everything else too.

Leave. Now. Do not collect $200.00... Find a group where there is no music equipment dated Neanderthals. They are out there...

[timmyo]

 

I received an email from my bass player today and I responded to him but probably was not able to articulate myself well enough due to being new to studios and pa systems.

 

I'd like some input on his concerns...  (his email is below)

 

First some helpful background....

 

I am the only guitar player in a new band and things are off to a good start.  we play popular classic Rock.  We're all over the place musically, so I need the helix (I would use it anyway as I am a big fan of it) to play a wide range of tones, from Hendrix, to soft non distortion tones, to early 60's, 80's, and things like Plush from the Stone Temple Pilots.

 

My tones are top notch - I've downloaded and tweaked the best Helix tones on this site, plus I purchased the Fremen pack and use them quite a bit.

 

We played in a new rehearsal studio last evening and the helix did not sound great through the pa system (the culprit was probably the pa system or the speakers).

 

Any thoughts of what the Bass player thinks I should do at future rehearsals?

 

His email:

 

=================================================

 

I'm familiar with the current multi-effects processors out there, the LIne 6 Helix LT, for example, provides some 67 amp models, 37 cabinet models, etc. I get the feeling that you're under the wrong impression as to what these amp models are for: they're for recording, playing straight into the console. These effects units, when deployed for live performance, do not need modeling. Amp modeling might work in a rehearsal studio because the PA is not really a PA, it's an over-glorified monitor system, and the speakers are pointing at us. In a live situation, the PA is facing the audience, and we won't be able to hear you. You won't be able to hear you. In a live performance, you should still use an amp, and since these rehearsal studios have an abundance of Marshalls, Blackstars, etc, there's no reason not to use them. In fact, we need to rehearse in real-world conditions as much as possible. 

 

You may be under the belief that these multi effects MUST be plugged into a mixer, but that is simply not the case. It might be helpful to take a closer look at the variety configurations that can be used that do not use amp modeling. Amp modeling is only to be used when using a real amp is not practical, rare as those occasions may be.Your multi-effects has a lot more than amp modeling, and these effects can be used without modeling, which is preferable. Think about it, why simulate a Marshall when you actually have a Marshall? Simulated amps and cabs are never as good as the real thing, no matter what the manufacturer claims.

 

Looking ahead, when we play out we will probably not have the luxury of a super monitor system. Musicians need an amplifier on stage mostly so they and the other performers can hear themselves play. You also need speaker presence for sustain. We generally don't re-organize the entire sound reinforcement system simply to accommodate amp modeling, that would be the tail wagging the dog. I know you paid a lot for the system, and you want to get the most out of it, but amp modeling is mostly a sales gimmick and doesn't serve much purpose in the real world. You do have lots of other great effects there, I'm only suggesting you look at ways to use them without modeling. Talk to the guitar guy at Sam Ash, or ask some questions on the guitar forums, you may be surprised what you hear. No one uses amp modeling for live performance. I saw Eddie Van Halen at Jones Beach and I could see the mic in front of one of his amps.

 

I'm not trying to rant, I just don't want to take up time in the studio discussing it. Please think about it, and read about it.

 

==========================================

 

 

Tell him to have a coke and a smile, and stfu :-)  

[BillBee]

That would be hilarious if the tone of the email wasn't so sincere. The  "sales gimmick" comment was the pinnacle of not knowing when to STFU.

 

Bassist heal thyself.

[cruisinon2]

I have to admit, I lol'ed at the part where he recommended talking to the guitar guy at Sam Ash...

Indeed...I'd sooner ask Medea for parenting advice. ;)

 

 

...and the part about no one using amp modeling live...I'm sure he means well, but I'm not sure what his main concern is.

Well I've never met the author of that email and perhaps I'm wrong, but in my experience anyone who goes out of their way to email you a lengthy diatribe chronicling all the things you're doing wrong, definitely doesn't "mean well". In all likelihood, his "main concern" is being in charge, and making sure that everybody around him knows just how brilliant and experienced he is. I've dealt with this type my whole life.

[markdenman123]

Ugh.  I like the suggestion that you send him some videos of modelers being used live.  Send him ALL of the Metallic clips from this latest tour.  ALL Fractal.  i know this is a Helix forum, and while I am not a Metallica fan....it speaks VOLUMES that they are using Fractals live.

 

From a more practical stand point....

 

I am in an original rock band that does a lot of out of town shows.  I ALWAYS use a Helix - rehearsal, live, in town, out of town, in the studio....EVERYWHERE I play.  Being heard and sounding cruddy is a NON issue.  I will post some live videos of me using the Helix.  Look for others too.  Collect them and send the links.  Educate the fellow.  He speakes from ignorance and living in the past.  However, be aware that modelling haters HATE modelling and often CANNOT be convinced that it is a viable amplification system.

 

Also, if you do not yet have your own FRFR cab, then you are not going to make your case as easily.  My EV ZLX12P goes everywhere with me.  ALL of my patches are created through it.  On stage it sits behind me as a guitar cab would.  It is 1000 watts of clean, class D power.  It will fill a small room effortlessly.  I m blessed in the sense that all the venues I play have sound guys, massive PAs and multiple monitors.  Nobody has an issue hearing me - my bandmates or the crowd.

 

 

[PeterHamm]

He is mistaken. That is all.

[DarthHollis]

So maybe I misread a little bit.  I use the Helix live and I have seen several other bands in my area using the Helix and no amp also.  If you do it right there should be no problem.

[DunedinDragon]

So what century did this guy teleport from?

 

Neither does a Luddite minded know it all wanna be... If he is this way about your setup, he will be that way about everything else too.

Leave. Now. Do not collect $200.00... Find a group where there is no music equipment dated Neanderthals. They are out there...

 

 

But you see, that's the value of being in a band with a Neanderthal....they make all of use modern guys look and sound so good!!!!! B)