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tenorkeith

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Really, Line 6???

It's been how long since your last update and you couldn't find the time for at least ONE new amp or effect?

 

Oh, but the tuner's nice. Sheesh!

 

p.s. Everyone else, please spare me the BS about we should be happy with whatever we get. Frankly, I'd pay extra for new amps if that will motivate you guys. You're so involved with all the new product cross-compatibility issues that you've forgotten why we came here in the first place. I still love my Helix, but waiting for the crumbs to fall is getting old.

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Quality post... Would read again.

 

Seriously, though, there's a lot of stuff going behind the scenes with this update that's setting the table for better things in the future. The GUI couldn't support a strobe tuner previously because the refresh rate of the screen wasn't high enough. This update addressed the refresh rate, thus making something like the strobe possible. There are other features in the future that could make use of that... Think of this update as more of a maintenance update than anything else. It's like getting the oil changed in your car - not sexy, but necessary.

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Gimme more $hit! Gimme more $hit!

 

Everybody!!!!!

 

Entitlement never gets old.... it just smells that way.  ;)

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Oh, Crusinon, you corporate guy, you!

Maybe you failed to read the part where I said I'd be happy to pay for it, if that helps.

Thanks for playing. :)

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I would pay for amp models and cabs myself as well...  Not complaining, but I'm not above financing the creativity design department...

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With the Helix, you enter the world of software. To wit, some common software engineering axioms might be worth keeping in mind when considering upgrades, their frequency, etc.

 

FAST. GOOD. CHEAP. Choose any two.

 - Common Project Scheduling Mantra

 

Adding manpower to a late software project makes it later: 9 women CANNOT make a baby in ONE MONTH.

- Fred Brooks

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59 minutes ago, tenorkeith said:

Really, Line 6???

It's been how long since your last update and you couldn't find the time for at least ONE new amp or effect?

 

Oh, but the tuner's nice. Sheesh!

 

p.s. Everyone else, please spare me the BS about we should be happy with whatever we get. Frankly, I'd pay extra for new amps if that will motivate you guys. You're so involved with all the new product cross-compatibility issues that you've forgotten why we came here in the first place. I still love my Helix, but waiting for the crumbs to fall is getting old.

 

WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH!

 

Someone give the baby a lolli.......keep it quiet till the update that takes advantage of all the "under the covers" work in this update that lays the groundwork for the bigger and better things to come. PATIENCE, YE OF LITTLE FAITH!

 

"I don't care! I want a new amp!"

 

WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH!

 

Sigh........

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54 minutes ago, glideman said:

I would pay for amp models and cabs myself as well...  Not complaining, but I'm not above financing the creativity design department...

 

First inclination is to feel the same way, but it would depend on how much it really changed the speed of updates. There's certainly something to be said for the free approach if it's largely as fast as it would go anyway.

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1 hour ago, tenorkeith said:

 

Maybe you failed to read the part where I said I'd be happy to pay for it, if that helps.

 

Sell Helix, buy Axe or Kemper...done. 

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rd2rk, thank you for proving my point.

 

That's exactly the kind of response I was expecting, proving that fanboys have extremely thin skin.

Any criticism of their beloved company or product results in a reflexive shriek.

 

So what you're telling me is that Line 6 is incapable of walking and chewing gum at the same time? They can't fix bugs and add amps simultaneously?

As I said before, I love my Helix, but I'm not afraid to criticize when I feel it is warranted.

 

The fact that your response is to marginalize anyone who dares to dissent from the herd is exactly why Line 6 will never get as much honesty as brown-nosing in this place.

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4 minutes ago, tenorkeith said:

So what you're telling me is that Line 6 is incapable of walking and chewing gum at the same time? They can't fix bugs and add amps simultaneously?

As I said before, I love my Helix, but I'm not afraid to criticize when I feel it is warranted.

 

Go over to TGP. Read the MANY posts by L6 representatives announcing ahead of time that this update would be primarily CORE TECHNOLOGY improvements (AND the usual bug fixes), laying the groundwork for good stuff to come. AND then they threw in a much improved tuner. Your entitlement attitude is what has prompted all the negative responses, NOT fanboy-ism!

 

L6 OWES us NOTHING other than bug fixes! Everything they've added since the first release has been icing on the cake. To state that appreciation and acknowledgement of that FACT is BS is insulting to everyone here.

 

Your criticism is NOT warranted. 

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42 minutes ago, tenorkeith said:

rd2rk, thank you for proving my point.

 

That's exactly the kind of response I was expecting, proving that fanboys have extremely thin skin.

Any criticism of their beloved company or product results in a reflexive shriek.

 

So what you're telling me is that Line 6 is incapable of walking and chewing gum at the same time? They can't fix bugs and add amps simultaneously?

As I said before, I love my Helix, but I'm not afraid to criticize when I feel it is warranted.

 

The fact that your response is to marginalize anyone who dares to dissent from the herd is exactly why Line 6 will never get as much honesty as brown-nosing in this place.

Well, since you seem to think you know more than they do, why don’t you mozie on down to their development lab and take over the amp model development department and get some new amp models out the door?   The simple fact of the matter is, no one but the Line 6 guys and gals knows what it takes to get amp models done. So unless you are intimate with the details of how they create our wishes, you’ve got nooo credibility here and yeah, you sound completely entitled. 

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1 hour ago, tenorkeith said:

rd2rk, thank you for proving my point.

 

That's exactly the kind of response I was expecting, proving that fanboys have extremely thin skin.

Any criticism of their beloved company or product results in a reflexive shriek.

 

So what you're telling me is that Line 6 is incapable of walking and chewing gum at the same time? They can't fix bugs and add amps simultaneously?

As I said before, I love my Helix, but I'm not afraid to criticize when I feel it is warranted.

 

The fact that your response is to marginalize anyone who dares to dissent from the herd is exactly why Line 6 will never get as much honesty as brown-nosing in this place.


Along with your "thank you for playing" bit, I must imagine you're familiar with flame wars and trolling. 

What is the most frequently requested gripe/revisit to date?  That's a serious question, not a rhetorical one.  I imagine that improvement to the tuner is at least neck-to-neck with meters.  For most of us, this is a welcomed update as it addresses a fundamental flaw since the original product launch.  Back in July you inquired if L6 revisited earlier iterations to make improvements.  They just did.  I'd imagine we'll see a pre-NAMM upgrade that will introduce new amps as well as take advantage of the back-room upgrades we just received.

BTW, appreciation for something which you personally don't appreciate does not a fanboy make.

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Well, I’m happy Line6 is investing in technical architecture and removing technical debt from the Helix family. That means we’ll keep getting updates and new features, and our Helix investment won’t be obsolete quite so soon.

 

Regarding new amp models, I’d love to see Line6 partner with Mike Scuffham to put S-Gear Duke in Helix. Maybe that would be a way to scale the amp development resources. Go listen to Jerry’s samples at https://www.scuffhamamps.com/product/amplifiers/the-duke. And can’t Jerry play!?

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1 hour ago, tenorkeith said:

rd2rk, thank you for proving my point.

 

That's exactly the kind of response I was expecting, proving that fanboys have extremely thin skin.

Any criticism of their beloved company or product results in a reflexive shriek.

 

So what you're telling me is that Line 6 is incapable of walking and chewing gum at the same time? They can't fix bugs and add amps simultaneously?

As I said before, I love my Helix, but I'm not afraid to criticize when I feel it is warranted.

 

The fact that your response is to marginalize anyone who dares to dissent from the herd is exactly why Line 6 will never get as much honesty as brown-nosing in this place.

 

I'm no programmer, but I have noticed that releasing foundational updates before product expansions is pretty normal. Sony just barely did it with the PS4 for example, with the explanation being that it's to pave the way for new features.

 

So there must be a certain logic to it.

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1 hour ago, tenorkeith said:

So what you're telling me is that Line 6 is incapable of walking and chewing gum at the same time? They can't fix bugs and add amps simultaneously?

 

Embedded programmer and software test engineer here. Since you seem to prefer voicing your opinion in a very direct way, I'll do so too: This crap is becoming tiring. You seem to have zero insight into software development, yet you come here and know exactly what the developers at Line 6 are doing wrong because... Yes, why actually?

 

As an attempt of explanation: Resources are limited. The main resource in this case is the time a team of developers has in total. This time can be spent on concepts, architecture design, implementation design, implementation itself, testing, debugging, maintaining and many other tasks. Developing for a real time embedded system like the Helix isn't like clicking on a few icons in an Android App Maker to build the 16931st whoopee cushion soundboard for the Play Store. These projects eat a ton of time in every stage from concept over implementation to maintenance. Almost everything has to be optimized because any code that is inefficient would result in an audible delay, every bit of wrong code would distort the sound in various ways. This is one aspect.

The other is what amsdenj mentioned: Technical debt. It's a term for tasks and unsolved problems that have accumulated over the development of a component or a product, basically a To-Do-List. This list has to be tackled someday if you want to keep your product in the market. If you look at the changelog for the 2.7 update, it's a lot of those minor annoyances that may be major ones in the wrong setting, like polarity/phase issues and amps that become quiet.

The third aspect is that we are not talking about a single device here. Helix is a platform with by now a whole set of different hardware devices and a software plug-in. "Platform" doesn't equal "I write a line of code and it works everywhere". It once again may have to be optimized and it has to be tested. And no, testing isn't plugging in a guitar, checking if there's sound and if so, ship it. If that was the case, we wouldn't have to fix bugs at all.

 

1 hour ago, tenorkeith said:

As I said before, I love my Helix, but I'm not afraid to criticize when I feel it is warranted.

 

Look around in the forum. For over one year there have been complaints about the tuner, including lengthy posts, heated discussions, YouTube side-by-side comparisons with other tuners, people testing it with different instruments and what not. I play bass and have had very few issues with the tuner, but it seems to be a problem for many users. What did Line 6 do here? They addressed a complaint. Isn't that what you wanted?

 

No, you're one of those people that not only buy a product and then somehow feel entitled to get something they want, you also have the impudence of putting yourself above a department full of most likely very experienced software engineers, programmers and projects leads saying "They're all idiots because they can't do more.". I recommend you get yourself a SHARC evaluation board, a matching C++ IDE and start writing your own DSP accelerated real time sound processing pipeline. Then you can use all your insight to add amp models, fix bugs, walk and chew bubble gum every day.

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Usability issues should also addressed quickly. Almost 3 years now with Helix and the same irritating ways have not being fixed/improved. The cab selection for one. Change cab and you have to redial everything again. Worse with dual cab. Light on/off status keep switching around everytime yoi use  HXEditor if you copy presets around. There is more but lets just say it curb my enthusiasm to explore further. I'm happy with the couple of presets i created, which soun killer.

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I've been waiting for this feature, but Line 6 keeps disappointing:

tenor.gif

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28 minutes ago, duncann said:

I've been waiting for this feature, but Line 6 keeps disappointing:

tenor.gif

Line 6 doesn't have to. The OP tenorkeith did it for them.

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I’d take an improved tuner over another amp any day.  If you can’t get the tone you after from the multitude of amps, cabs, and variables that are already in there, then your probably not going get it with yet another amp.  

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6 hours ago, tenorkeith said:

Really, Line 6???

It's been how long since your last update and you couldn't find the time for at least ONE new amp or effect?

 

Oh, but the tuner's nice. Sheesh!

 

p.s. Everyone else, please spare me the BS about we should be happy with whatever we get. Frankly, I'd pay extra for new amps if that will motivate you guys. You're so involved with all the new product cross-compatibility issues that you've forgotten why we came here in the first place. I still love my Helix, but waiting for the crumbs to fall is getting old.

OK, even I'm not that anal... Well maybe, and Im not thin skinned either. The BS is from what I can tell coming from your side. Why? Because Helix was what it was when you purchased it. PERIOD. You don't like it, move along then. Anything else that's added later is only icing on the cake, and NO, there is no "contract" or promise or guarantee that Line-6 owes us anything else but warranty work during that period of time it's actually under that timeframe. They dont owe us a thing but what we purchased. Whats pathetic to me is thinking they still somehow do.  My thinking is that Line-6 does not have to (legally or otherwise) add another single Amp or Cab if they choose not to. So count your blessings on the fact that they did address the overly nervous and jumpy tuner issue because in retrospect they didn't even have to do that.

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That said^^^^  I hope for many more updates and look forward to bitchin about no tuner in the editor... ; )

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12 minutes ago, spikey said:

That said^^^^  I hope for many more updates and look forward to bitchin about no tuner in the editor... ; )

 

WHEW! For a minute there you had us worried! ;)

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1 hour ago, tearitupbaby said:

TENOR I am right there with you. Its funny how the fanboi's come out of the woodwork to defend some company that really doesnt care about them and when someone criticizes line 6 for anything they jump all over that poster. Its really sick and pathetic to me. This happens not only with music gear. Having a tesla s model I am on the tesla forums and the same crap happens there when someone posts about how their car needs service alot or how space x is a fraud or any opinion questioning the tesla company. Its really rather gross to see in the huge scheme of things in the world 

 

I've been using digital modelers for 15 years. You name it, I've tried it. I've had dealings with all of their support departments. Well, those that even HAVE support departments. Line6 is one of the very few that REALLY DOES CARE about it's users. As has been mentioned, they don't OWE us ANYTHING new. If all they cared about was our money, they wouldn't have had to add ANYTHING. Yet, I've lost count of the extras they've given us. And if either of you spent any time over on TGP, you'd also know that they've got the BEST support crew in the business.

 

I don't get fanboys either. I DO get loyalty to a company that's EARNED it.

 

Another thing I don't get - you own a TESLA and you're worried about $1500 for a modeler??!??!?? I should have such problems!

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56 minutes ago, spikey said:

OK, even I'm not that anal... Well maybe, and Im not thin skinned either. The BS is from what I can tell coming from your side. Why? Because Helix was what it was when you purchased it. PERIOD. You don't like it, move along then. Anything else that's added later is only icing on the cake, and NO, there is no "contract" or promise or guarantee that Line-6 owes us anything else but warranty work during that period of time it's actually under that timeframe. They dont owe us a thing but what we purchased. Whats pathetic to me is thinking they still somehow do.  My thinking is that Line-6 does not have to (legally or otherwise) add another single Amp or Cab if they choose not to. So count your blessings on the fact that they did address the overly nervous and jumpy tuner issue because in retrospect they didn't even have to do that.

 

^^^THIS!!!^^^

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34 minutes ago, tearitupbaby said:

Priorities i guess.  I bought into the tech and was on the fence for a long time but jumped in ast year and think the car is great and the whole concept is awesome. Not a fan boi just like the concept. 

If all my modelers died i would not worry about 1k or 1500 investment but as i like what i use now for my needs I am on the fence about the new gear. I can afford it if i really want it but like i said over and over nothing has really wowed me enough to purchase. The tesla did wow me enough to purchase after like 12 testdrives and alot of research.

 

Priorities... I can dig it!

 

So, if I understand you, You've changed your mind about Helix being overpriced - 

 

"wow..too steep for me too...I am sure it will be nice...competes with the axe products and kemper....i could sell a bunch of stuff to fund it but dont want to ride that train anymore..if was was around $799 i would consider it if i tried it first and it was amazing compared to what i use now.."

 

And even though Helix still doesn't blow up your skirt, If all your current modelers, which you're still happy with, suddenly died, you'd spend $1500 for a Helix rather than replace the stuff you're happy with?

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'll take a Helix maintenance, bug fixes and improvements all day long... and an awesome tuner to boot...  Sweet update!

 

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yep the tuner is the real winner in this patch, I dont care too much for the marketplace though Id rather get patches directly from the creators site.

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I'd say - just because we don't see it, it doesn't mean that it isn't there ;-)

 

As far as I have read from some other threads there was a lot of under the hood work, that will help to maintainance and ease to integreate new stuff. So I'd say it's a good update.

Regarding the marketplace I don't really care about it and propably will never use it but they where clever enough to integrate it quite descreet so that it doesn't get in the way.

 

 

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I didn't have much issue with the tuner before, but this update made me see how much easier (quicker) it is to use. The Strobe option works great. The more products they create with a unified platform, the more investment and the longer the cycle for said platform. I'll prefer to say "thanks". The initial product value was worth the cost to me at Rev 1.05/6 but while the marketplace is an interesting feature, I now have come to expect the updates and expanded feature sets as a part of the overall value proposition and wonder/hope they don't get into the HD "add-on pack" thing. 

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I’ve owned my Helix LT for about ten months or so.  Like many of us here, I love it.  Although I don’t take advantage of it currently, the platform is awesome.  Developing and exchanging patches across various devices for various purposes is great.

 

It was only a matter of time before this thread kicked up with no new ‘toys’ in the latest release complaint.  Glad everyone loves the tuner.  I truly think LIne 6 is harshly criticized by some for over delivering.  In my ten months of ownership there have been at least three updates.  Delivering all the legacy effects(for which I still haven’t gone thru many), many new amp models such as Placater, Cartographer, etc and many new effects.  It hasn’t been that long since the previous release.

 

Lot of people have requested metering.  I’d love to see it to to help maintaining volumes.  I imagine that is something the new refresh rate will help with.

 

Either way my purchase has only increased in value three times now..  And the ecosystem keeps building out so I am learning SOOO much from folks here, YouTube, etc.   Thanks to all for that.

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Tuners: Hey, I'm grateful for the new tuners, they're an improvement to the product.
For some, that's fixing something that was wrong, but, even though I didn't like the tuner at first, and couldn't seem to accurately tune my guitars with it, after some getting used to, I was able to make it work, and never needed another extra (outboard) tuner. The fine tuning bar was the first improvement, it made tuning faster for me, but these current tuners are way better.
Well, then is it a fix or an improvement? I expected a better tuner off the shelf, I expected it of this product, I expected it of the brand, the company... I don't know, it was a weak point.
Did I manage? Yes, and the more I used it (and I use my Helix a lot) the quicker & better I could get my instruments tuned. For me, it wasn't faulty, it just wasn't that good. I see these new tuners as an improvement, and I thank them for that.

Marketplace: I can buy IRs from the companies directly. I make my own presets. Enough said.

Bugfixes: That is something I have the right to demand. I'm no betatester, I don't get paid to test the products, instead, I pay for them. I demand bug fixes. And they come... they do.
Some take more time, some less, but L6 does deliver, or that's my experience, in general.

New models and features: Some of you say L6 is not legally bound to put out any new features or models. Why would they bind themselves? I get it, and I believe you, I suppose you know it for a fact. OK. They're not bound. 
I'm among the many (and we may be a majority) who, since maybe 15 years ago, buy this kind of product because it does get updates and new stuff.
Getting some new features and models every now and then is a MAJOR incentive for me to buy L6. The day that incentive disappears, I'll have one less reason to buy their products.

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Spikey, why is it that whenever this topic comes up, your initial response is always "They don't owe you anything!"?

 

As gear goes, this is a bigger investment than most, and yes I do expect an extra level of support. I'm not a programmer, I'm a funeral director and a music teacher. I don't have all day to study tech manuals as some of you clearly do. But what I DO see is that some companies find the time and manpower to update their products rather frequently, INCLUDING new content. And with the resources of Yamaha behind it, Line 6 should have no problem in this department.

 

If I recall, I seem to remember Line 6 saying that they have at least one dedicated programmer working on amps and effects, and that it takes approximately one month to produce an amp. If this is true, and maybe it isn't, then one could assume that an interval of six months would produce something on the order of six items, whether amps or effects. Maybe someone at Line 6 can chime in and correct me if this is wrong.

 

In any event, I don't think that it's unreasonable to take something Line 6 said and use it as a loose expectation of things to come. And if your flames are meant to squelch criticism, it is working. I have been privately messaged by several people on this forum who say they have similar sentiments, but are too afraid to voice them for fear of being attacked. That's sad.

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Also, there is this. They had to unify a code base for yet ANOTHER new product, and are preparing for other things in the relatively near future, if Eric’s hints are to be believed.

So, an update with no new amps or FX shouldn’t be a big deal.

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2 minutes ago, tenorkeith said:

Spikey, why is it that whenever this topic comes up, your initial response is always "They don't owe you anything!"?

 

Probably because it is completely true? I’m honestly not trying to be combative or condescending, but I cannot wrap my head around this entitled mindset. Ultimately, your expectations and demands simply don’t automatically equal someone elses obligation. You bought a product. You either thought the price was fair for the product as-is or you found it overpriced and gambled on its value appreciating in a way that would eventually satisfy you. Either way it was your choice. Own your decision.

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What, on Earth, is "entitled" about using what Line 6 said about their own personnel as a guide for expectations???

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49 minutes ago, PeterHamm said:

Also, there is this. They had to unify a code base for yet ANOTHER new product, and are preparing for other things in the relatively near future, if Eric’s hints are to be believed.

So, an update with no new amps or FX shouldn’t be a big deal.

 

I am not really disappointed by the update. I am glad that they did things under the hood for a longer support lifespan. I love the new strobe tuner, and glad they fixed some of the phase issues when using dual amp blocks. I hope with future updates (and yes I do expect them as it has been stated they are coming) I hope we get more goodies. But that doesn't mean I come in here, and lollipop & moan like the OP.  (I am grateful for this update if it indeed lays foundation work for future updates/support)

 

That said, I see Helix Rack + control, Floor, LT, HX, and now Stomp. I personally do wonder when they will slow down on new hardware, and put more focus into the hardware that is already avail. At this point I don't really see what they could add on the Helix hardware line that they don't have covered.  What a Helix combo amp,  desktop bean, or a pocket Helix, the Helix Cloud? (lol that last one was for my fellow gamer guitarists)

 

Nothing wrong with this sentiment...

 

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15 minutes ago, tenorkeith said:

It's good to see that all opinions are welcome here....not so much.

I see. So the only opinions you want to hear in a thread you initiate are those that agree with you? Differing opinions are not 'welcome' by you?

 

You posted what you know to be a provocative topic (as indicated by your closing p.s.) and then you don't want/expect to hear from those whom you've intentionally provoked?

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17 hours ago, dragonfet said:

 

Embedded programmer and software test engineer here. Since you seem to prefer voicing your opinion in a very direct way, I'll do so too: This crap is becoming tiring. You seem to have zero insight into software development, yet you come here and know exactly what the developers at Line 6 are doing wrong because... Yes, why actually?

 

As an attempt of explanation: Resources are limited. The main resource in this case is the time a team of developers has in total. This time can be spent on concepts, architecture design, implementation design, implementation itself, testing, debugging, maintaining and many other tasks. Developing for a real time embedded system like the Helix isn't like clicking on a few icons in an Android App Maker to build the 16931st whoopee cushion soundboard for the Play Store. These projects eat a ton of time in every stage from concept over implementation to maintenance. Almost everything has to be optimized because any code that is inefficient would result in an audible delay, every bit of wrong code would distort the sound in various ways. This is one aspect.

The other is what amsdenj mentioned: Technical debt. It's a term for tasks and unsolved problems that have accumulated over the development of a component or a product, basically a To-Do-List. This list has to be tackled someday if you want to keep your product in the market. If you look at the changelog for the 2.7 update, it's a lot of those minor annoyances that may be major ones in the wrong setting, like polarity/phase issues and amps that become quiet.

The third aspect is that we are not talking about a single device here. Helix is a platform with by now a whole set of different hardware devices and a software plug-in. "Platform" doesn't equal "I write a line of code and it works everywhere". It once again may have to be optimized and it has to be tested. And no, testing isn't plugging in a guitar, checking if there's sound and if so, ship it. If that was the case, we wouldn't have to fix bugs at all.

 

 

Look around in the forum. For over one year there have been complaints about the tuner, including lengthy posts, heated discussions, YouTube side-by-side comparisons with other tuners, people testing it with different instruments and what not. I play bass and have had very few issues with the tuner, but it seems to be a problem for many users. What did Line 6 do here? They addressed a complaint. Isn't that what you wanted?

 

No, you're one of those people that not only buy a product and then somehow feel entitled to get something they want, you also have the impudence of putting yourself above a department full of most likely very experienced software engineers, programmers and projects leads saying "They're all idiots because they can't do more.". I recommend you get yourself a SHARC evaluation board, a matching C++ IDE and start writing your own DSP accelerated real time sound processing pipeline. Then you can use all your insight to add amp models, fix bugs, walk and chew bubble gum every day.

 

BOOM!

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